Finishing Well in Ministry: Guarding Against Drift : Peter Greer

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each and every week, I have the privilege and honor of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and together we engage in a conversation to help you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you really thrive in both your life and leadership. Now, if you’re joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up. Drop your name and the name of your ministry in the comments below. We’ll be praying for you and your ministry. And whether you join us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe and follow so you do not miss out on any of these great conversations. I’m excited today because I’m welcoming Peter Greer to the show. Peter serves as the president and CEO of HOPE International. He’s written a number of books, including his most recent, which is entitled How Leaders Lose Their Way. Peter, welcome to FrontStage BackStage.

Peter Greer
Thanks for having me.

Jason Daye
Yeah, super excited about this conversation. This book that you and Jill Heisey, is that how you pronounce Jill’s last name? Okay, awesome. That you and Jill co-authored. Absolutely fantastic. I love how it dives right into something that maybe we who are in ministry leadership, whether pastor or ministry organization, may not think about this nuance. And I love how you go there and then you just kind of explode it throughout the book. So thank you for this. But we often talk about organizational drift, or mission drift, right? And we sit down and kind of strategically talk about our local church or our ministry organization, making sure that we’re staying true to the mission. But one of the things that you, Peter, bring up in How Leaders Lose Their Way is that, although that’s important, there’s also this idea of personal drift, right? This personal side of it. You use King Solomon as an incredible example throughout the book on this. And so I’d love for you to start off, Peter, just talk to us a little bit about the differences and the importance of this idea of personal drift.

Peter Greer
Yeah. Well, it was a decade ago that Chris Horst and Anna Haggard, and I wrote a book called Mission Drift, and it really looks at how organizations slowly, but it seems like so often, move away from their founding purpose and their Christ-centered mission. And it happens in history, and it is happening in real time. Again, a decade after we wrote that book, we started exploring if it would make sense to do a revised and expanded version. And I thought that sounded terrible. I don’t want to highlight any more examples. I feel like we did that. But what I think, over the last decade, has really become clear to us is that the principles that we write about in how organizations lose their way, those same principles have a very personal application. And over the last 10 years, my guess is we could all, if we pause for just a moment, we could remember individuals that we looked up to, maybe we had read their books, or individuals that we had this respect for, and then you hear the news, or you see the story, and you wonder, how did that happen? And as we started to look at that, we found that the answer is exactly the same. What leads organizations to drift is the same thing that leads us to drift, and that is small compromises, subtle ways that don’t seem that consequential in the moment, but you take enough small compromises compounded by time, and you realize that you end up in a very different destination. And so in our research, we started to understand what it is that pulls leaders away. What is it that we need to be aware of? What is it that we need to do so that our lives can be marked by long-term faithfulness and not another story of drift? So that’s the process that we went through to say, how can we have lives of long-term faithfulness, as Eugene Peterson writes about, that long obedience in the same direction. How do we do that?

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. And it is so important for us in ministry leadership to pay attention to this. Because, as you said, these are little compromises, incremental shifts that all sudden, a decade later, you turn around, you look back, and you’re like, how did I get here personally, right? And we hear these stories, as you said, about a lot of ministry leaders who find themselves in these places. We don’t want to be that. We don’t want our listeners, our audience, to be that. We don’t want any ministry leader to move that direction. And so, Peter, let’s begin leaning in a little bit about, so foundationally, you looked at the life of King Solomon as a good example. Obviously, we can kind of think about how that makes sense, but talk to us a little bit about why King Solomon. Why did you lean on that, and what did you learn as you were researching, as you’re studying and preparing for this?

Peter Greer
I mean, King Solomon is a fascinating example. And I love how scripture doesn’t gloss over the challenges. It doesn’t just tell the highlights of individuals who are faithful. But there was one study that looked at leaders in Scripture and found that only one in three finished well. One in three, Jason. And then the study that was done said that might not be too far off the percentages today. And so this should be like alarm bells going off if indeed that is true. In some, it’s this big, egregious kind of loss of way, and in some, it’s just this slow erosion of passion and purpose. But less than one in three in scripture really finished well. And King Solomon, if you think about biblical leaders, who started well but maybe didn’t finish well, there’s so much that has been written from King Solomon. And so we know that he was given a mission by his father, David. And his father, David, knew a thing or two about drifting from mission. And he says, Remember, like he literally pleads with his son, follow God, keep his commands. And then we see Solomon started out so beautifully. Started out with this incredible invitation where God says, What would you like? And Solomon says, I need wisdom for who, by himself, can govern this people of yours? He knows that he can’t do it. He starts with such beautiful humility, but then very quickly, it’s replaced by hubris, and then that leads to, inevitably, a series of colossally bad decisions. But what I found so interesting in the example of King Solomon is that we can read the words that he wrote in the book of Proverbs, and then we can compare that to the life that he lived. And we can say, Solomon, you knew it, you just didn’t do it. And again, this is not to critique King Solomon. This is to explore our own hearts and to say, How often do we know things but yet not do them in our lives? And so, again, the story of King Solomon. It’s from a long time ago, but there is so much modern relevance with what pulled him off mission, and what I believe is right there pulling me off mission, too. And so it’s really just this opportunity to say, Let’s learn from him. Let’s learn from modern examples. Let’s learn what happened, and then let’s try to chart a different course.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And it’s so interesting. You brought this up, and you touch on this in the book about finishing well. The idea of what you said about the research, where there are so many times in Scripture that Scripture shows us not just the highlight reel. Scripture is definitely not Instagram, right? It’s not just all the highlights of everyone’s lives; it is the underbelly of it as well. And the reason that exists for us is that it helps provide some guidance on not just what to do, but what not to do. And so you write about these misguided pursuits. These things that King Solomon got caught up in. But, as you said, fast-forward it to today, and we get caught up in it as well. Peter, share what some of those challenging pursuits are that are misguided and can, again, incrementally get us off course?

Peter Greer
Yeah, and this is why I just love the analogy of drift, because it’s subtle, right? And a lot of the things, these pursuits are not bad in and of themselves. It’s just when that slowly becomes disordered, when that becomes the goal, as opposed to what long-term faithfulness looks like, then all these other things are important as well. But it gets the order of prioritization, order of love, disordered, as has been written about. But for me, one of the really simple ones is, how easy is it to say we are pursuing God’s goals, but to do it in our own way? Sometimes, to say we want to pursue the will of God, but not do it in the way of Jesus. And again, we see this. He had this noble goal. He was given this mandate to build the temple. That was something that was an incredible privilege that he was given. He’s going to be the one who’s going to build the temple. But if you look at the way that he did it, it was not in the way of God. He uses slave labor as part of this process. And then you look at misordered loves. How long did he spend building the temple? Seven years. How long did he spend building his own personal residence? 14 years. Again, where’s his level of prioritization? What is it that matters? So that is just one example of what I would say was one of these pieces of again, even if the goal is not bad, the way that we pursue it. And again, this is, for me, coming out of church and nonprofit world, there is nothing wrong with wanting to build a church and wanting to build a nonprofit. But if I go outside my office right here, and I talk to the families that we have, the staff that we have, and they say this job is having a terrible impact on my soul, my family is falling apart because we are nonstop doing this work. I would say, Noble goal, but not in the right way. So, again, ancient story, whole lot of modern relevance in the way that we lead and serve as well.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends, just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s a great example. As we look at some of the other things that are evident in the life of King Solomon that, again, got him off task, what are some of the other elements that you see us wrestling with, even today?

Peter Greer
Jason, one of the other ones that’s so interesting, as you look in the book of Proverbs, and one of the things that King Solomon said is that wounds from a friend can be trusted. He said, We know we need people in our lives to call us out. You want to stay on mission? You need people who are going to help you see when and where you are slowly getting off mission. And yet, if we look at the life of King Solomon, do you know how many times we see someone challenging the decisions of King Solomon? Do you know how many times we see a friend inflicting a few wounds? Do you know how many times we even hear about friends? We hear about one friend and zero times that anyone said, Hey, I think you are getting off track. Even though he was making some pretty egregious decisions that were so clearly not in the way of the God that he started wanting to follow. And yet, you look at his father’s life, King David, and you see that there are several instances where, when David was getting off track, whether it was the prophet Nathan or whether it was the commander of his army, Joab, they came to him and said, Hey, you’re making a colossally bad decision. And yet, we never see that in the life of King Solomon, and that connects to the modern research. Every leader that we found had no one in their life who really challenged them in a deeply personal way. Either they didn’t disclose what they were going through, the challenges they were facing, or there was no one who knew them well enough or loved them well enough to say, That doesn’t seem right. That seems like you’re heading in the wrong direction. So, again, ancient story, modern relevance, wounds from a friend can be trusted. And maybe the question for you and me is, when is the last time, in love, we had some friends that gave us a few jabs to make sure that we are staying on track, on mission, and avoiding drift?

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. I love that idea. And, actually, in the book, you have this beautiful diagram that helps us think about these core relationships in our lives, and how they speak into our lives, and talk about people that are mentoring us, and we often talk about mentors or coaches or even therapists or counselors, people speaking into our lives. But then you also have the friends, those people who know us well, right? Those are important parts of our lives, speaking into our lives. And if we isolate ourselves as leaders, we don’t have people who are asking, as you said, Peter, those challenging questions. Those questions that go beneath the surface. If we just surround ourselves with yes men and yes women, it makes us feel better in the moment, but again, that pushes us on this trajectory where things typically do not end well. This relational piece. I would love to lean into it just a little bit more if we could, Peter. How have you seen in your own life and the lives of other leaders who are on a trajectory to lead well, they’re on a trajectory to end their leadership and leave a positive legacy. Where are relationships? How do relationships impact that? Where does that sit in the world of ministry leaders?

Peter Greer
So, again, the research that we did was to try and understand what causes leaders to lose their way, and the second part, how to make sure it doesn’t happen to us. So everything that we found wasn’t just the identification of problem, but then also identification of practice. What can we do in our lives to put a few more safeguards around the way that we live, the way that we lead, and the way that we serve? And you’re exactly right. One of the things we found was that isolation is utterly deadly. It is utterly deadly for a leader. And the more things that we have that we’re dealing with that we just keep trying to stuff down that no one knows, the bigger that box inside us that is just packing down TNT, it’s just going to make for a more explosive not if, but when. We’re just not made to keep putting things down. And what’s the great antidote to that? Real friendships. To do life together where we’re having in a trusted relationship. The opportunity to say, I’m really challenged right here. I’m struggling right here. Where do you see me living in a way that is not in alignment? So how many secrets do we have? I was just talking to a friend, and he said, In my life, I truly have no secrets anymore. I thought, Wow, how many people can say that? How many people truly can say, I’ve got people that I’m just doing life with? So, that’s a real, practical way. Then the practice is, as you reference, this idea of constellation mentoring. And I thought of mentoring kind of as just a one-on-one, but I think we need to be more thoughtful and intentional with a whole range of relationships, the constellation of people that are around us. And so if anyone wants to see a copy of what that looks like, you can go to the website HowLeadersLoseTheirWay.com, and it’s a free download. But, to me, it’s been so helpful that every January I look at the relationships in my life. Who are the mentors? Who are the people, and not just the people, but what is the specific area that I want to learn and grow in relationship with them? And then we look at the core four. Who are those core four people? And that’s kind of a reference to my friend Pierre, when I was living in Rwanda. He said, Everyone in rural Rwanda knows that they need four core friends. I was like, That’s very specific. Why four? And he said, That’s how many people it takes to carry a stretcher. He said, Everyone knows you need your core four. And then the people who we’re pouring into, who is it that we are, whatever we are, whatever stage of life, who are we pouring into? And that’s good for them, and it’s good for us. And then also, who are the people that are on our prayer team? Who are our prayer partners who are actually invited to know and pray about the things that are going on in our lives? So, for me, it’s about 20 relationships that are down on paper in this constellation, and it has been transformational for me to avoid the isolation that is so deadly, and to do life and relationship with others.

Jason Daye
I love that. Absolutely love that. Great resource. And we will have that linked in the toolkit for this episode, which you can find at PastorServe.org/network for those who are listening or watching, along with links to Peter’s book How Leaders Lose Their Way and other resources. But, as we’re looking at this, Peter, one of the questions I had as I was reading through the book, and I think it’d be helpful for us here, is, if a pastor or ministry leader is watching or listening to this conversation, what can they do right now to check, am I on course, or am I drifting? What is the action they can take now to kind of get their bearings to see maybe how much they’re drifting so that they can know what steps, what are some of these practices, that you share in the book that I can begin to engage in?

Peter Greer
Jason, that’s a really interesting question. And you phrased it, I think, in a very interesting way. And I would start by having the assumption. The question is not, am I drifting? The question is, where am I drifting? And I think about this, you know, we had a little time with our neighborhood a couple of weekends ago, and there was this tree that was one of these weed trees, and it just was out of control, and it was in the space, it was kind of between three of our neighbors, and it was just out of control. And it took a whole day for us to take that thing down. Multiple trips getting that thing taken care of. And what was so ironic is, if any of the three of us neighbors a few years ago had gone, it would have taken 30 seconds to pull that weed out, but it had grown. And, to me, the assumption is that I am drifting in my life. Lord, search me and know me, see where I am drifting. And I think that is a very different starting point from just the assumption of drift, or the assumption that I’m not drifting. That is a very different way of framing this. And so for me, it’s like, yeah, Lord, please show me where I’m drifting. And then some of the indicators that we found we already talked about friendship, that’s a big deal. How much do we know that we would not feel comfortable with anyone else knowing? That should be a blinking red light. Second question, what’s our prayer life like? I’m amazed at how many decisions are dramatically different. And I want to phrase that not how is my prayer life, not the public one, not the one when you’re doing it. How is your personal relationship, and what does prayer look like in your life? Again, that is a really interesting thing that we found correlated with a life of faithfulness or a life of drift. Third is, when was the last time you slowed down to even know where you are? Again, drift. If you’re on the water, and you stop paddling, you might think you’re in the same place, but it’s only when you look up and see that place on shore that you realize, oh, wow, I stopped paddling, but I did not stay in the same place. And I think in similar ways, when was the last time you slowed your internal RPMs down enough to know where you are? Where are you right now? And then, fourthly, ask people who are closest to you. Ask them. Have the courage to say, Where do you see drift in my life? And if that question terrifies you, that is another really important piece. So I could go on, but those are some of the pieces. And, again, it is small and it is subtle, but I really would say, the sooner we catch these small compromises, the better we are going to be, as opposed to letting them grow, letting them continue to flourish. And a lot of times, it’s slowing down enough and identifying where, not if, drift is happening in our lives.

Jason Daye
At PastorServe, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders just like you. If you want to learn more about how you can qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. You don’t want to miss out on this opportunity. That’s PastorServe.org/freesession.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, Peter, and that’s incredibly practical for us to think through. Like, okay, what does that look like for me? And I think one of the points that you and Jill make in the book, and that you’ve kind of reiterated here, is that the idea of drift is something that we need to have a rhythm around. The idea of checking our drift. We need to have a rhythm around that. It’s not something that every five years we check in on. Because in five years, those incremental shifts can become just like the tree that you guys took down, right? If you had pulled the weed when it was a weed, it wouldn’t have been as big an issue. And so talk to us a little bit, Peter, about these rhythms. You’ve written and you’ve spoken about this idea of resting and slowing down, but even the rhythm of checking in on our drift. How do we incorporate that into our regular spiritual rhythms?

Peter Greer
Yeah, Jason, there are some people who are going to write books as theologians. There are some people who are going to write books as scholars. I’m a practitioner. I just want to know, what do I do? How do I put this into practice? And so at the end of every chapter, it’s like, let’s get practical. What do we do in every single one of these areas? I would just say that the tools were created, not for others, but for us. How can we put these things into practice in our own lives? And again, the regular reflection. That’s just something that I never did until recently, but actually put on my calendar. The things that I say matter to me, and one of the things that I say matters to me is an extended time to slow down. And I never fasted in my life either. That was not part of my practice. But there’s something about the food and the soul that I don’t understand. Again, I’ll leave that for other people, but putting it into practice has been really interesting, and having time to slow down. So that is one practice that I think is in alignment with this idea to say, Search me and know me. There are no secrets with God, but we can do a great job of fooling ourselves. So, slowing down and trying to figure out where it is. But, Jason, you’ve been asking me so many great questions. How do you, in your life, identify drift, and what does this look like for you?

Jason Daye
Yeah. That’s a great question. I think one of the things that’s absolutely key is the remembrance that we’re on a journey. Too often, I think, earlier in my ministry life, I would feel like, okay, so I’ve gotten to a certain place, and so I achieved something. I can tick that off, right? Like, that’s off the list, and then, okay, let’s focus on something else. That’s kind of how I was wired. And what the Spirit has taught me over the years is that there is this rhythm within this journey. That things aren’t just necessarily ticked off. You know, the box is checked, but the idea is, how do we revisit things? And so that’s why I like to think a lot more about rhythms versus balance. Sometimes we talk about balance. I love rhythms because rhythms remind me that we’re revisiting things because we are all progressing, we’re all growing, and we’re all developing. We’re in different stages of life; therefore, these things need to be revisited. I certainly appreciate the exercises that you did, the very practical exercises that you and Jill provide, in How Leaders Lose Their Way. Because those are tools that I can see are things that can be part of that rhythm. These are tools that can be revisited. After we process through the entire book, some of these tools will definitely be part of kind of that toolkit that I have of things that, whenever I do these rhythms of revisiting things, to pull those out and reassess, and I think that helps us stay on track, right? Because it is that rhythm, it is that reminder that we are always in progress, that we are growing in our sanctification, that we’re growing in our relationship with Christ, and that life is changing around us. So, how do we incorporate those kinds of check-ins into a rhythm in our lives? Yeah, so it’s great stuff. One of the things I really appreciated, in addition to just the practicality of the book How Leaders Lose Their Way, was really kind of the heart behind it, Peter. You really, as you read through it, sense that as practical as it is, there is this desire to see God’s people live well, to lead well, and to finish well. I mean, there’s this heartbeat within the book. I would love to hear a little bit, Peter, if you could talk to us about the importance of that to you personally. Not just for yourself and how you lead, but leaders around you, leaders who are representing Christ around the world, even. What is the heart beneath all of this?

Peter Greer
Yeah, thanks, Jason. You hear the statistics that one in three leaders finish well. That got my attention. What got my attention even more was watching the people that I looked up to, that I knew, and instead of having any sort of attitude of, I can’t believe they did this. It’s a different question. If, statistically, that is more common than not. How do I make sure that that’s not my story, right? And you hear these stories, and you watch the impact, and it’s not just on the individual, it’s not just the loss of credibility and trust and all that. You watch what happens to those people who are closest to them. You watch the impact on the organization that they’ve spent their life investing in, and it is not hard for me to think about. If I were to egregiously lose my way, what would that mean in the conversation that I would have with my wife and my kids? What would that do to my colleagues whom I have such admiration and appreciation for? And more than that, what would that do for the watching world that sometimes questions not just the leader, but questions the one that they said that they followed? And of those that leave the faith, 24% say that the primary reason they did is because of a person who was supposed to be a follower of Jesus who did not act in the way of Jesus. There’s a lot at stake on this. 24% of those who are walking away, and I have seen this with people whom I love, that it’s not actually a problem with the theological or practical. It’s that they saw or were wounded so deeply by someone who professed Jesus and then did not live that out. There is so much at stake. There is so much at stake. So, I resonate with Robert Robinson, who wrote in the hymn, Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing, he says, Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. And I think, if we’re all honest, it’s not difficult to imagine that we could make a mess of things. We could really, very easily make a mess of things. And it’s not difficult to also imagine what the impact of that would be on the people and the organizations that we care so deeply about. So those are some of the reasons why I really wanted to research this and say, Lord, but for the grace of God, go I, and so help me. Here’s my heart, Lord, take and seal it. What does that look like in a practical way to live in such a way that is in alignment with what I say matters, what I say I want my life to be about?

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. I love that heartbeat. Peter, as we’re winding down this conversation. It’s been incredible. I love how you bring the very practical, the very biblical, and then there’s the soul and the heart behind it all together. So incredibly meaningful. I want to give you an opportunity. You have the eyes and ears of men and women leading the ministry. What words of encouragement do you have for them today?

Peter Greer
Just maybe, as we have this conversation, to treat the stories of people who have lost their way, and I would just say, assume that that could be your story as well. Don’t think that there’s any invincibility. Don’t think that there’s any exceptionalism. And I think for all of us, that means that we get serious about our decisions, actions, thoughts, and behaviors. But until we actually believe that we could lose our way, we’re not going to take the steps necessary to really stay on course. And, again, go back to where we started this conversation, Jason, when it comes to this issue of drift, how do we avoid drift? First, know the destination. Know where we’re going. Have that point up ahead and say, What does it look like for a life of faithfulness? And then that’s not enough. You can have that point, and you can just sit back, and you’re not going to reach that point. So it’s knowing the destination, and then grab that ore and start rowing. Today, make the decisions, make the courageous decisions that are necessary to do the work, to have a life on mission with an abundance of God’s grace. Let’s know where we’re going, and then let’s row together for more of us to live well. And let’s change that stat. One out of three finishing well is too small. Let’s go three out of three.

Jason Daye
Nice. Yes, I love it. Thank you, Peter, so much for making time to be with us here on FrontStage BackStage. Thank you for that encouragement. Thank you for your heart for pastors and ministry leaders. And for those of you who are watching or listening, we will have links to Peter’s ministry, his organization, HOPE International, links to the book How Leaders Lose Their Way, and links to the different resources in the toolkit that we prepare for this episode and every episode we do. You can find that at PastorServe.org/network, and the toolkit, you’ll also find a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, which pulls insights out of this conversation that Peter and I just had, and also pulls some questions out for you to reflect on personally, reflect on with the leaders in your local church or your local ministry. So we encourage you to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. Peter, such a joy to have you. Thank you for your passion around this. How Leaders Lose Their Way and just the heart you have in regard to helping us recognize where we are drifting and then take measures to pull ourselves out of that drift and to focus on what God’s called us to. So thank you, brother.

Peter Greer
Thank you, Jason. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the conversation.

Jason Daye
Awesome. God bless you.

Jason Daye
Here at PastorServe, we hope you’re truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage Backstage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you find the show, so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend, and don’t forget our free Toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.