When Pastors Stop at Savior : Kyle Idleman

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each episode, I have the opportunity to sit down with a trusted ministry leader, and together we tackle a topic in an effort to help you, and ministry leaders and pastors just like you really thrive in both life and leadership. Be sure to like, subscribe, follow, and to share, so you do not miss out on any of these great episodes. This week, I’m excited to have Kyle Idleman with us. Kyle is a Senior Pastor of Southeast Christian Church. He’s a best-selling author, and his most recent book is entitled The Missing Messiah. Kyle, welcome to the show, brother. Good to have you.

Kyle Idleman
Thanks, Jason. Great to be with you, man.

Jason Daye
Yeah, really looking forward to our conversation. Now, Kyle, one of the things that we’re incredibly grateful for is that Jesus is indeed our Savior, right? Jesus saves us from our sins, from our selfishness. Jesus rescues us from all those things that entangle us and those things that separate us from God the Father. Jesus redeems us. Incredible things. But if we stop with just Jesus as Savior, we kind of stop short on the fullness of all that Jesus is. And so to kind of kick off our conversation, Kyle, I’d love for you to kind of walk us into what are we really missing, or what are we overlooking, if we stop short there with just Jesus as Savior?

Kyle Idleman
Yeah, so the book is called The Missing Messiah. And the idea is that the Messiah part of Jesus is often left out. The way I think about this is in our church. I mean, this may not be true in your listeners’ churches, but in our church, if you ask people, What does Christ mean? A lot of them would probably say, Oh, that’s his last name. That’s Jesus. Last Name Christ. And they have not necessarily understood that Christ is Greek for Messiah. It is the Anointed One. It is Jesus as King. And all the implications that come with that, I think, as pastors, we rightly put a lot of emphasis on what it looks like to follow Jesus as Savior. You know, that is really appealing. It’s really attractive. And it’s true. Jesus saves us, so let’s lean into that. And yet, what I would say is that people are hungry for Jesus as Messiah. Jesus as King. We’re a little leery. Maybe I’m the only one. But I think we’re probably a little leery of taking any focus off of savior and putting it on Messiah because that feels more threatening to people. It has immediate implications. And yet, understanding Jesus as Messiah, calling us to submission, calling us to surrender, is really where we find the life that Jesus has invited us into. So, this book is largely an invitation for people to ask some hard questions about their relationship with Jesus. Like, am I just following Him as savior or as Messiah, too? And I hope also to challenge us as pastors to say, Okay, I want to make sure to not just assume that people understand this. We recognize our cultural tendency to put Jesus in this box of our own personal preferences and what’s comfortable for us. But when I start talking about Him as Messiah, it breaks that box down.

Jason Daye
Yeah, and I’d love to talk a bit about this because I think this is the heartbeat and the crux of it all, especially in the world in which we live now. We tend to hear a lot of conversations, and it’s hard to get away from conversations where people are really talking about what Jesus thinks about everything, right? And kind of putting this idea of this is how Jesus would vote, right? This is Jesus’ stance on this particular idea, or whatever it might be. And so there’s a lot of confusion around this, because we’re really kind of positioning Jesus, or you’re hearing these conversations positioning Jesus in these different ways. So, Kyle, how does this understanding of Jesus as Messiah help us as pastors and ministry leaders in cutting through this confusion and chaos that sometimes we contribute to, right? How do we get grounded? How do we get grounded in this and move through this in a way that’s going to be really pointing people to the heartbeat of Jesus, truly?

Kyle Idleman
I love asking questions like, Does Jesus always agree with me? Because if he always agrees with you, then that might tell you something about the box that you put him in. And, if you think about Jesus as a political mascot for your side, then you have a tendency to leave out parts that might conflict with your political platform. And I think recognizing that all of us have this tendency to do that. I mean, that’s not a new phenomenon. One of the things that’s convicting for me here is I was thinking through history. You have crusaders who would say, Oh, I’m following Jesus while slaughtering people. You have slave traders who use scripture to justify slavery. You have Nazi, using air quotes here, Nazi “Christians”, but they created this version of Jesus that stripped him of his Jewish identity. And you just kind of go through the list. If you ask those people in history, are you doing this? They’d say, No, this is who Jesus is. They had convinced themselves that this is who Jesus is, and I want to recognize my own vulnerability to do that. To say, I’m going to personalize him in a way that I’m comfortable with or that fits my agenda. And more than that, our church is filled with people who have their algorithms established. So, culturally, we just live in a time where this idea that Jesus might think differently than them on some issue feels really threatening because they’re surrounded, oftentimes, by an algorithm that just reinforces what they already think. Our role, part of our role, is to hold up here’s Jesus the Messiah. Here’s the Jesus of the Gospels. And how does that fit with this lens, cultural lens, that you’re reading the gospels through? And again, that’s not new. It’s been a challenge for the church from the beginning. But I do think some of our cultural challenges are more acute. I’ll give you an example of this. I talk in the book about the “netflixification” of faith. That the way we get our content is super personalized. We don’t even realize it, but it’s so personalized. And so when we come to church and we listen to someone teach, we, without even meaning to, subconsciously, we’re expecting a Netflix vacation of Scripture, where this person is going to know what I want to hear and talk about that, and leave off what I don’t want to hear because that’s how we’re catered to, and that’s how we have been taught to think about any kind of content. So, people get really upset when they’re like, wait a second, this isn’t in what I had saved. So, recognizing that part of our job as pastors is to mess with people’s algorithms. The way that this was said to me in an email not long ago, a guy was leaving the church, and he said to me in the email, he said Hey, I just feel like these days the church is trying too hard to interfere with my life. And when I read that statement, I thought, Oh, he thinks that’s 100% legitimate. He’s listing that as, You get this, of course, the church isn’t supposed to interfere with your life. And I’m reading that, of course, well, it’s kind of my job description. That’s part of what the gospel is meant to do, and yet he didn’t see it that way. So, that presents for us challenges, but also great opportunities.

Jason Daye
Yeah, Kyle, that’s fascinating when we think about that. And I agree 100%. I’m sure everyone watching or listening is nodding their heads. You could tell their stories. Exactly, because it’s like the world in which we live, I think, does compound this, right? I mean, we go back to Burger King started it all with that you could have your Whopper your way, right? But now, the world is compounded to such a degree that people are looking for, rather than looking for the challenge from Christ or the challenge from scripture, they’re looking for a confirmation or an affirmation of what they’re already carrying. Right? So, when we think of this idea of Jesus the Messiah, right? Yes, our Savior, right? Yes, the Savior of the world. Yes, the one who does bring joy into our lives, who can bring peace, all of that 100%. But then, that next piece is that challenge piece. That idea of King. Kyle, how do we make sure that we’re balancing the way that we preach, the way that we engage, the way that we disciple, to make sure that we’re balancing both of those elements, so that the fullness of who Jesus is is transmitted, right? Is shared.

Kyle Idleman
Yeah, let me use a metaphor to talk through how I think of this as a pastor, okay? I feel like lots of people come to church, and I’m going to use a metaphor of a dresser. They have their dresser, and in their dresser are these different drawers. There’s their finance drawer, there’s their relationship, sexuality, and politics drawers. And then there’s their faith drawer. They’re super comfortable coming to church and letting me open up their faith drawer. Talking to them about spirituality in a way that is very theoretical or even academic, they’re fine with that. They expect me to stir in that drawer. What messes with people is when you start opening up those other drawers. When you understand that faith is the dresser that all the drawers fit into, that changes how you preach. It changes how you teach. So, suddenly, you’re opening up somebody’s financial drawers, and they’re slamming it shut, and they’re like, Well, wait, hey, Jesus is my Savior, but stay out of my financial drawer. Well, if he’s your Messiah, then all of those drawers are fair territory. They all have, he has rights to all of them. But, I think, culturally, that’s a reset for people. This idea that, Oh, wait, you mean I need to talk to Jesus about this part of my life, or he has lordship over this part of my life? So, as pastors, being able to, I’ll say, normalize. But, you know, hey, when you come in here, we’re going to open up some different drawers of your life, and we’re going to see what Jesus has to say about these areas. Again, I think that is, I don’t know, we would perhaps be leery of that because we don’t want to lose people. We don’t want to turn people off. Here’s one way I would encourage pastors, and I think a lot of us know this, but it just helps it to be stated. One of the number one reasons people walk away from the church is because the Jesus they are handed is not compelling enough for them to hold on to. In other words, they were handed a transactional Jesus. Hey, here’s your ticket to heaven, and I’m going to improve your life. When what they really do want is a transformational Jesus. I think, culturally, we’re going to enter into some times that are challenging enough that Jesus as Savior but not Messiah won’t hold up for people. In other words, that Jesus of, hey, now that you’re in a relationship with me, great, I’ll see you in heaven, doesn’t hold up. So I think there’s a hunger for Jesus as more than a life coach. For Jesus as a king. And we’re a little nervous to lean into that, but I really think people want a cause worth dying for. They want a mission to bleed for, and it might be that the very thing we’re afraid will be unattractive is what their soul is actually hungry for. It might be the most attractive thing to them. Like, okay, finally, here’s a kingdom that I can be a part of. And so Jesus as Messiah is inviting people into that kingdom.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends, just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, Kyle. Let me ask you this. As we’re looking at this kind of transactional versus transformational. As a pastor, I’m thinking through that, let’s say, and I’m looking at the ministry that I’m helping lead, helping guide. How can I assess? Are we leading more transactional? Are we leaning more transformational? What are some good things to kind of analyze, assess, learn where we are, and make adjustments?

Kyle Idleman
You know, one of the ways I would do this is to end a message with a question, in my mind, as the preacher, of what is this costing them? Does implementing this message cost them something? Does it cost them, I don’t know, comfort? Does it cost them some finances? Does it cost them a relationship? Does it cost them reputation? Does it cost them something? If I’m preaching messages that don’t cost my listeners anything, then I’m missing some discipleship here. I’m missing the idea of Jesus as Messiah. You couldn’t, in the first century, declare Jesus as Messiah without that costing you something. I mean, it’s going to risk your life if you say Jesus is the Anointed King. If I’m following him in that way. I’ll give you an example of this. If I’m preaching on forgiveness, there’s part of me that wants to approach this very therapeutically. Hey, here’s what psychology says about bitterness, and if you hold on to it, here’s what it’s going to do to you, and here’s the steps to forgiveness. And there’s space for all of that. But, ultimately, I want you to forgive because you have submitted to the Lordship of Jesus. He is your King, and he’s told you to forgive. And if you’ll obey Him, He’ll give you what you need. He’ll give you what you need to live that out, and you might have to forgive today and then forgive again tomorrow, but it’s a matter of obedience. He’ll give you what you need. That message is harder for me because I want them to feel good about it. I want to explain it in a way that just appeals to their emotional well-being. And, again, I’m not saying there’s not space for that in the discussion. I think certainly the Bible gives us wisdom around those things. But, ultimately, this is a matter of allegiance. This is a matter of being obedient. Same is true if I’m talking to them about unity in the church. Like, ultimately, this is a matter of obedience. It’s not a matter of whether or not everything makes sense to you. Here’s what Jesus prayed for. Here’s what he’s commanded us. And so, preaching with that in mind. Asking my congregation questions that drive home this idea of, when’s the last time Jesus disrupted your plans instead of blessed them? We put so much emphasis on Jesus blessing our lives, which is not bad, but when’s the last time that He disrupted your plans? And inviting him to do that, and then showing where we have room to grow in this. Listen, I had this point of conviction this past week as a preacher. We’re in the middle of this Giving Initiative, and as I was working on this, we had our we had this commitment weekend, right? And my notes section of my phone gets shared with my kids. My kids are all in their 20s, so when somebody makes a note on iCloud, we can see each other’s notes. And I saw in my notes section this thing that said, commitment weekend. I click on it, thinking it’s something, some note I made and forgot about it, and I realized, Oh, this is one of my kids’ financial commitments. And it was sacrificial. I read it and my first response, Jason, was, oh, that’s too much. You know, your season of life where you need to be saving for a down payment on a house. My first response, as the dad, revealed my lack of understanding Jesus as Messiah. Because if I really understood what Jesus as Messiah means, I would celebrate that my child just stored up for themselves treasures in heaven where moth and rust don’t destroy. But, instead, my first instinct was, hey, emotionally, I didn’t say this, but don’t get carried away. Don’t get too carried away. This isn’t the right time. Immediately, I just had this conviction because I’m like, Okay, I think I believe this. But then there’s something like that that reveals to me that I’m still growing in this. I don’t fully understand yet what Jesus is calling us to as Messiah, and so there’s room for us to all grow in it. I think letting your church hear you be on that journey with them is really encouraging to them. It’s like, okay, I’m not telling you this as somebody who has fully arrived. I’m telling you this as someone who’s figuring out what it looks like to let Jesus go through this drawer in my life, and I still have this tendency to want to shut it when he starts rummaging around.

Jason Daye
At PastorServe, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders just like you. If you want to learn more about how you can qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. You don’t want to miss out on this opportunity. That’s PastorServe.org/freesession.

Jason Daye
Absolutely. And I love that sensitivity to that, because it’s one of the things where the longer we’re in ministry, the more almost calloused we can get to, we’re doing the Jesus stuff, we’re doing the God stuff, right? And so, it’s not just that we’re going through the motions, but we’ve become accustomed to a lot of it. So, Kyle, I’m curious, how do you continue to remain sensitive to moments like that? Sensitive to the spirit, as the spirit is kind of nudging you and speaking into your life. What are some things in your own life that help you remain sensitive to recognizing Jesus, not only as savior, but as Messiah?

Kyle Idleman
I think it’s understanding my growth. Meaning that, to me, one of the most dangerous places to be in as a spiritual leader, as a pastor, as a preacher, is a place where you’re preaching, and you’re not preaching out of conviction. You haven’t studied the text, you haven’t spent enough time in prayer to where you’re preaching from personal conviction, and, instead, you’re thinking, well, they need to hear this, you know. And as long as I’m coming up short there, if I’m preaching for them, and I’m not recognizing my own growth, I feel like I’m not quite ready to preach it. I’m not quite ready to lead. I want to be leading as someone who’s on the journey. And Jesus invites us to follow Him, to take up a cross, to follow Him, and just recognizing that we don’t ever arrive at that. And I think it’s disillusioning to our people when we preach as if that’s true. That there should be a humility of, hey, I am learning to do this, but asking myself some of those same questions. I’ll do that. I’ll find ways to make Jesus agree with me on things, and then to share some of that with some vulnerability. One of my convictions in writing this book, too, as a pastor, was like, if Jesus as Savior, but not Jesus as Messiah, does not prepare the church well for what’s coming, meaning that, if I look at, AI, the different different things that will be available and offered to this next generation, a domesticated Jesus can’t compete with that. That Jesus as Lord, Jesus unleashed as King, wins every time. So I want to make sure that I am not discipling them to this comfortable version of Jesus, even if right now that might be appealing, I know they’re going to face personal challenges and personal hardships. But, even more largely than that, I think what’s coming will require us to understand Jesus as Messiah in a more significant way. I mean, you know this, Jason, and I know most of our listeners know this too, but there’s nothing more convicting than visiting followers of Jesus in parts of the world where following him requires, really requires, sacrifice. And then you think, okay, are we ready for that? If this is what happens, if we’re put in this position, am I preaching a gospel that is in fullness enough that it will stand when some of these difficult challenges inevitably come, whether those are individual or more cultural?

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. On that point, this idea of a faith and an understanding of Jesus that can withstand. And you mentioned this domesticated Jesus, and being sure that we don’t domesticate Jesus. There are some voices that gravitate towards probably extremes on this, right? Even currently, right? There are some that are probably much more domesticated Jesus, and then much more of an aggressive Jesus. I’m curious, Kyle, how do we find, not just a healthy balance, but a true balance of who Jesus is as Messiah and as king? So, we make sure that we don’t go to one of these extremes. And, again, as you write in the book, create Jesus into our own shape. Shape Jesus into what we think he needs to be.

Kyle Idleman
Yeah, I think about the difference between the word personal and the word personalized. That Jesus is a personal Savior. That’s beautiful. Let’s celebrate that. Personalized, where we make him who we want him to be, is where we get into trouble. So, when we personalize Jesus, what we’ll tend to do is make him like us, right? So if you’re somebody who is short with people and angry, you’ll just gravitate towards a Jesus who is angry, upset, and quick. If you’re somebody who is kind of a people pleaser, doesn’t want to confront anyone, and doesn’t want to have hard conversations, then your tendency is going to be drawn to a Jesus who, in the name of patience, won’t have a hard conversation with somebody. So part of this is saying, Okay, am I looking in a mirror, or am I looking at the Messiah? And recognize, knowing myself well enough to know that this is what I’m going to do. I’m going to make Jesus a little bit my image in these ways, and being able to confront that is the challenge. But to help people recognize that that’s just the tendency. That’s just what we’ll tend to do. We’ll tend to make him in our image, and personalize him that way. One of the things that I’ve really been trying to challenge our folks with a little bit more is reading the Bible with the question of not what is Jesus wanting to say to me, but what’s he wanting to say to us? There’s something, as pastors, we recognize this, but we can forget it. There’s something really powerful about reading and studying the life of Jesus with other people that confronts our own personalized approach. Where when I talk to somebody else, I’m like, Oh, well, they didn’t hear it that way, or they didn’t apply it that way, or they didn’t read it that way. So, of course, Scripture was written for community. It was assuming that we wouldn’t be doing this in isolation. Yet, you can blame it on COVID or on apps, really cool apps that play, and you can listen to the Bible alone. I think we have an increased tendency to listen to Scripture or read Scripture in isolation. And one of the best practices that you can do is to study the Bible with other people. So, as pastors, I just encourage us not to let people off the hook on that we put so much emphasis on reading the Bible, which is obviously appropriate. But just adding a “together” to that, I think, can go a long way in helping us see and study scripture in a way that’s more objective.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. Absolutely love it. Man, it’s been a great conversation, Kyle. Absolutely love The Missing Messiah, what you’re bringing to light, and encouraging us to not overlook. As we’re winding down this conversation, you have the eyes and ears, Kyle, of pastors and ministry leaders, your brothers and sisters who are serving. What words of encouragement would you like to share with them?

Kyle Idleman
I guess just a reminder that my caution would be that we don’t become so culturally relevant that we become irrelevant, right? In other words, that we don’t present Jesus in such a way that he’s so accessible and he’s so appealing that we end up stripping him of his power. We end up stripping him of his revolutionary king. And that we kind of forget that what turned this world upside down wasn’t a church necessarily that had killer worship sets and great branding. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. But it’s a church that followed Jesus who didn’t just bless our plans, and didn’t just baptize the American dream. He would invite us into a revolution. And so, as pastors and leaders, just embracing that Jesus, and then having the courage to point people not just to Jesus the Savior, but Jesus the Messiah.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love it. Brother. Love it. Kyle, again, thank you for hanging out with us, making time to be with us here on FrontStage BackStage. For those of you who are listening or watching, we do have a complete toolkit that complements our conversation here with Kyle today, which highlights The Missing Messiah, his latest book. It has links to the book, so you can purchase that as well. It also has a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide with insights pulled out from this conversation and questions for you to reflect on in the context of your own local ministry. You can find that at PastorServe.org/network. So be sure to check that out. Kyle, brother, thank you for hanging out with us. Thank you for making the time. God bless you.

Kyle Idleman
Thanks, Jason. Grateful.

Jason Daye
All right. Appreciate you.

Jason Daye
Here at PastorServe, we hope you’re truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage BackStage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you find the show, so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend, and don’t forget our free Toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.