Unexpected Ways the Gospel Shapes Your Leadership : Eddie Byun

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another engaging episode of FrontStage BackStage. I am your host, Jason Daye. I am excited to welcome you to yet another conversation that is designed to help you, pastors and ministry leaders just like you, really thrive in both life and leadership. We are proud to be a part of the ministry of PastorServe, and each and every week, I have the privilege of diving into a topic with a trusted ministry leader. And it is a joy to be welcoming back to the show a ministry leader who has really invested into the life of the church in so many different ways, and that is Eddie Byun. Now, Eddie has pastored and taught in the seminary for over 25 years, and he has served in a variety of countries – the U.S., Canada, Australia, and South Korea. He’s an award-winning author, and his most recent book is entitled Gospel Integrity. He is the Director of the Doctor of Ministry program, and he is Associate Professor of Christian ministry at Talbot School of Theology and at Biola University. At this time, I would like to welcome Eddie back to FrontStage BackStage. Eddie, welcome to the show, brother.

Eddie Byun
Hey, great to be back, Jason. Always a pleasure to be here.

Jason Daye
Yes, it’s so good to have you with us, and good to see your face again. Really enjoy talking with you, diving in, brother. You always have so much to offer. Now, Eddie, as you and I were preparing for this conversation, you shared something with me that I really found interesting. We were talking a little bit about our lives and ministry as pastors, as ministry leaders, and you shared that oftentimes, pastors can, from the outside, in their ministries, look really exactly the same, and yet, kind of on the FrontStage, what people are seeing on the outside, their ministries can look exactly the same, and yet underneath, there can be something that is motivating them that is very, very different. There can be something distinctive. There can be something like a heart-level difference between how they are serving. Some might be serving out of a sense of gratitude and love, and some may be serving out of different motivations, and I’d love for you to share a little bit about those differences and why that is important for us to maybe understand what is driving us in the way that we serve in ministry.

Eddie Byun
Yeah, you know, my latest book that just came out is called Gospel Integrity: Moving Your Heart from Duty to Beauty, and a central thrust of the book is centered around this concept of gospel integration. The question is: Have we truly integrated the gospel to the depths of our being so that the gospel impacts and affects all facets of our lives, every part of our lives? And in particular the area that you’re touching upon, what I’ve noticed over the years, both in the classroom as I teach pastors and future pastors, as well as in the church ministry context, is that, yeah, two people on the outside could look extremely passionate, faithful, diligent, and in our churches we would think, again, these two people are the most dedicated people we know who serve in our churches. But what I’ve discovered over the years is when we take a real, deeper look into their heart motivation on why they’re so sacrificial, why they’re showing up, it could be radically different. And outside, it could look the same: the diligence, the dedication, sacrifice, and everything. But the one who has integrated and understood the gospel is responding out of thanksgiving and gratitude for the gospel, for His grace, and so we are overwhelmed by that grace, and so we gladly surrender and serve in all facets of life. But the other person, though on the outside looks very diligent, sacrificial, everything, that person can be motivated out of a desire to please God in terms of I have to do this in order for God to be happy with me, otherwise, something bad might happen. Otherwise, I might get a flat tire on the way to work. There is a radically different heart motivation that is determining the drive for these two people, and I really believe that the difference really is their understanding and their application of the gospel that distinguishes those two hearts.

Jason Daye
And so, how, Eddie, can we begin to assess ourselves and determine what is really motivating us? Because oftentimes in ministry, we enter into ministry, we’re serving, we believe that we are aligned with the gospel, right? That we have this integrated gospel within us, but how do we know which way we’re leaning as we serve in ministry over time?

Eddie Byun
Yeah, I unpack this quite a bit in my book. But if I could summarize some of the key things that I’ve discovered. Number one really has to come down with again, even my subtitle is “Moving Your Heart from Duty to Beauty,” and to unpack that a little bit further, I would want ministers to really take a hard look and say, Am I being driven by duty, or am I being drawn to beauty? And what I mean by that is, is the motivation of my heart centered around what I can do for God? Is the central motivation, you know what? I can do this by my strength. I can sacrifice. I can please God, and there is a drivenness. But the strength comes from me. Versus, if I’m drawn to beauty, the strength or the power comes from the object, the beautiful object which I behold, and that, I believe, needs to be the gospel. And so, as we are going through this shift of understanding as we study, and I like to refer to the gospel as a diamond. And we need to rotate this diamond and discover all the facets of his beauty, because for a lot of believers, and myself included, for so many years, when I would think gospel, I would just think, all right, it’s kind of like the John 3:16 understanding, where I just have to put my faith in Christ to forgive me of my sins, and I’m set for all of eternity. But then, for a lot of people, we’re like, I don’t really need the gospel anymore because I’m already saved, and so maybe I need the gospel to preach on Easter Sunday. You know, maybe if I’m talking to a not yet believer. But for the rest of my life, if I’ve already given my life to Christ, I’m like, oh yeah, maybe I don’t really need the gospel anymore. So we put it in our back pocket. But we need to understand that the gospel is a lot broader, deeper, and more beautiful than we realize, and that is meant to impact all our lives. Not just the beginning of our faith journey, but every day of our faith journey, and that’s part of what it means to integrate and understand how the gospel is relevant for all of life. My marriage, how I approach work, how I view money. The gospel is relevant for all facets of our lives.

Jason Daye
Yeah, Eddie, what I love about the book is you talking about all these facets of your life is in Gospel Integrity, you really were open about your own journey, right, Eddie? And you share how, throughout your journey, these different facets. You talk about, especially how you mentioned ministry recognition, and you talk about influence in your journey in ministry kind of began changing your heart. How did you begin recognizing what was happening on your journey as you grew in ministry, as you began to experience these new levels, new stages, and new seasons of your ministry life?

Eddie Byun
Yeah, I started off in seminary and ministry, like I think most of us. Pure desire. All I want to do is honor God. I want His name to be known. I want to preach the gospel to those who don’t know Him, and my motive was very much: it’s all about Him. It’s not about me. But as I started to get involved in fruitful ministries, when ministries I was leading started to grow very rapidly, and also when I was part of a mega-church in South Korea that had 60,000 members, they had their own satellite and cable network, a strange and sad thing began to happen. Well, for one, I started to get recognized out on the streets and restaurants, things like that, and that was surprising at first. But later on, I almost expected it when I would be out. And what I started to see happening in my heart, what God started to reveal to me, is suddenly that pure desire I once had for ministry, where it’s all about the name of Jesus, suddenly, I felt the desire for my name to be known, recognized, and admired as well, and it was a very difficult revelation that God was pricking my heart to see. And if I’m honest, it was very ugly to start seeing what was happening to my heart. And so I actually write about this journey because my warning to my fellow pastors and ministers out there is: if we are not careful, if we do not integrate the gospel into the depths of our hearts, if we are not grounded firmly in the grace of the gospel, we can easily turn ministry and preaching into an idol, where it becomes about us and not about God. And I think because of the social media age that we’re in, especially, we really need to make intentional efforts to be grounded first in who we are in Christ. Otherwise, we’re walking into a tornado that is so easily drawing the fleshly desires of ourselves to make a name for ourselves to become the center of our ministries. And I think that’s a danger we all face in this day and age.

Jason Daye
Yeah, Eddie, what was it about the gospel that you began to notice or learn that challenged, you know? Because, as you said, it is the idea that we want more and more people to know of Christ, and so we think the bigger impact that our ministry is having, this is all good, right? This is all positive. So what was it about the gospel that challenged, and made you stop and reconsider, and say, okay, what’s healthy and what’s unhealthy?

Eddie Byun
Yeah, I think the result or the fruits of a gospel in a person’s life are very contrasting to the fruits of a life that is centered around self. And let me give you some examples. When I was pastoring in South Korea, again, I’ve been involved in very large ministries, very, in the eyes of the world, “successful ministries”. And then when I came here, I had to start up a Korean language program in our Doctor of Ministry program for Korean pastors. And as I was thinking about what they need, how are they feeling, what are they going to be like coming into this program, and how can I really minister to them? I think this story can illustrate the change that the gospel brings to us. So the first day of class, I ask everyone. These are pastors, a lot of them from Korea, throughout the U.S., throughout some parts of Europe, things and like that. And so I asked them, How are you today? And again, you know, they’re jet lagged. They have all these things. And every single one of them said one of three things: I’m really tired. I’m really busy. Life is really hard. So every single one of them would either say that, and some of them said all three. It’s hard. It’s busy. I’m just wiped out. And so I started to address this issue in terms of, you know, what? When we encounter the gospel and when we see the breadth and depth of it, it changes who we are. It changes how we even treat our staff members. There is a lightness to it. There is a rest that he invites us into. He does the heavy work. The heavy work is not up to us. And so I start to rotate this gospel diamond each class and unpack it further. So two weeks pass, nine to five every day. You know, jet-lagged students. So by the end of our session, the end of the two weeks, I have kind of an exit interview with them, and I ask them again, How are you? And you would think they’d be more tired, right? Jet lag, all-day classes, all these things like that. And one by one, as I was interviewing them, they said something that I almost never heard a Korean pastor say when I asked, How are you doing? They kept saying, “I’m so happy,” and that really blew me away because I realized now they started to get it. They realized that what they were doing in terms of their life with Jesus, their discipleship and their ministry is, they put all the weight and the burden of performance of success upon their shoulders, and that’s what I mean by drivenness. That it’s up to me. It’s up to my strength, and willpower, and skill set, and smarts, and talents, and so we need to build this ministry. We need more numbers. We need bigger attendance. We need bigger offering. We need more time. And so, suddenly, that pressure, and if we’re honest, a lot of pastors have that within them. We are like Type A personality. We know how to get things done, but the danger in that is suddenly we think ministry is up to me. But also the danger in that is we begin to think sanctification is up to me. That I’m saved by grace. I’m saved through the gospel. But now the rest of life, the successful fruitfulness of my life and ministry is on my shoulders, and so that puts, not only a weight of stress on us, we begin putting that same pressure on our staff members. And unfortunately, I’ve seen this happen over and over again, that people are chewed up and spit out and burnt out because of ministry. And so I think this dynamic of integrating the gospel is of utmost importance for the vitality and the long-term success of your soul, but also for those who are under your care.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends! Just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation, as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic, and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. So, Eddie, then, with this gospel integrity, how then do we get to a place in ministry where we see the gospel actually changing those desires, or those compulsions, or those drives? How does the gospel actually change those rather than maybe simply making us feel guilty about having them, you know what I mean? How does it shift that? How does it change that?

Eddie Byun
Yeah, I think there are two things I’d like to respond to in light of that question. Number one is to understand what I mean by gospel integration. I’ll unpack that first. And there are three components that I outline in my book in terms of teaching us how we integrate the gospel or what that terminology means. And so the three components that I outline are that there, first of all, needs to be gospel comprehension, and then gospel implication, and then gospel application. So the first component is gospel comprehension, and so for every passage of scripture that we read or study, I believe that there are elements of gospel grace in there. So we need to learn how to study scripture through that gospel lens so that we understand and comprehend what the gospel is. And then, once we understand it, we have to ask what are the implications of it, and then the application. Let me give an example. It’s like, for example, Romans 8:1, popular verse that we all know. There is, therefore, now no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ Jesus. So what is the gospel comprehension or the gospel nugget of that verse? It is that, oh my goodness, those of us, if I’m in Christ, I will never be condemned again, like before the judgment seat of God. That God is for me. Oh my goodness, like I will not face the condemning wrath of God ever, and that’s good news. That’s gospel, right? So now that we have the comprehension, now let’s ask, what’s the implication of it? So now, the gospel implication is, oh my goodness! So because I won’t be condemned, the implication is that now I don’t have to walk in fear, or be driven by a sense of having to please or appease the wrath of God. The implication is, oh, I don’t need the validation even of my peers because it is God who is for me, and so that’s the implication of it. Now, the application is: let’s say you do have an important meeting for work or ministry that you’re normally nervous about. You know what? I could walk in here with peace and confidence because my identity does not rest in the validation of my peers or of my church members. And so suddenly, I’m applying or integrating that gospel truth to the regular everyday applications and situations within my life. And so I think, as we learn to study scripture through that gospel lens, and going through these even stages of comprehension, implication, and application, that begins to open up our eyes to see the beauty of God’s grace. That He is a kind God towards me. That He is a patient God towards me. That He is accepting. He is loving, and I could be at peace and rest within Him. One of the chapters I have in my book is actually called “The Gospel is an Invitation to Rest.” And I think for a lot of us in the church, we need to learn that that side of the gospel diamond. That instead of working ourselves to death, thinking that is how I’m going to please God, we need to switch to understand that, Oh my goodness, His invitation to me is to rest in Him and to rest in His Word. So that’s the first part of the answer for your question. I think the second part that I teach my students to do as well is we cannot open the eyes of our people through the beauty of the gospel. That is the work of God’s saving grace. But what we are called to do is to be preachers and planters of that seed of the gospel. And so, as we behold and unpack the different elements of the gospel, regardless of which passage we are on, we plant that seed of the gospel, knowing that, in time, like in all sovereign elements of God’s word going forth, with accomplishing His purposes, we know that there will come a point where eyes will be opened, and then once the coin drops and the heart responds, then what starts to happen is that shift from duty to beauty, from being driven to drawn.

Jason Daye
Yeah, no, that’s excellent. That’s very practical as you move through that gospel kind of flow. I think that’s important as we look at this idea of how this is practical in our ministries. One of the things that you mentioned earlier, kind of these clear indicators of whether we’ve really integrated the gospel into our lives in ministry, is how we treat people. You mentioned how we treat our staff. You mentioned that. Eddie, why do you think we can preach grace, and yet sometimes lead in ways that don’t always reflect that same grace that we preach?

Eddie Byun
Yeah, that’s a great question, and that’s a very important question I think every minister needs to answer. And ultimately, if that is the case, where how we treat people in our home, how we treat people on our staff behind closed doors, if that is different from the message or how we treat people in public on Sundays, then that is a huge red flag that we have made a dichotomy. We have made a distinction and a separation between living out the gospel in public versus private. And that’s a big warning sign that we maybe did not or are not integrating the gospel in our hearts. Because one of the signs of a gospel integrated heart, I think, on a personal level, is going to be a peace, a lightness, and a happiness marked by our lives, and I’m not just talking about, yeah, there is an element of biblical joy that we love to preach about, where beyond circumstances there is a depth. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about just genuine happiness. Are you marked with joy and happiness? That, man, I’m so glad to be alive. I’m so glad that I have this honor of serving God’s people. I think it’s one of the greatest honors in the world to be a preacher. That you get to be paid to dedicate 10s of hours per week, hopefully, right, to study God’s word, and then you get to share that with God’s people. I think that’s a privilege, and do we understand the privilege and the joy and the happiness that that gives to us? I think that’s one thing. It leaves us lighter and happier. And I think that’s what Psalm 1 is alluding to is that “happy is the person”, right? That the people who do dive deep into God’s word, and ultimately, as a redeemed people, we see the redemptive elements of gospel in God’s word, that leaves us in a happy state, and because of that, we will hopefully overflow that joy and happiness to those who are closest to us. In the family, but also in our staff. Are they also encouraged by our presence because we have the joy of salvation, the joy of the Holy Spirit? Is that truly operating in how we lead? But as I mentioned, in so many church settings that I know of, people are miserable once they get higher up in the leadership structure, and I think that’s a big warning sign that we need this understanding of gospel integration. And we need to preach the gospel to ourselves every day so that we are impacted by it, and out of the overflow of our hearts, our mouths will speak with goodness and grace as well.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. If the gospel is truly shaping the culture of our local churches, our local ministries, what should we expect to see showing up in those cultures, right?

Eddie Byun
Yeah, that’s a great question too. And I think, for one thing, it’s going to be marked by a lighter happiness, as I talked about. I think that’s one key important marker. But relationally, within a church context, especially, because we are fallen people, we’re going to hurt each other. There will be misunderstandings. And so I think, because of that too, the gospel of grace being lived out, especially in the light of forgiveness and reconciliation, I think that’s going to be another important marker. Also, how we personally go through suffering and how we minister to those who suffer is also going to be marked by a greater sense of tenderness and compassion as well. I actually have a chapter dedicated to forgiveness, and a chapter dedicated to suffering as well, and one dedicated to sovereignty because I think those three elements are some of the biggest hurdles of truly trying to apply the gospel in our lives. Forgiveness. So when we are hurt, when we sin and are sinned against, I think that’s one of the challenging areas. How do we now truly live out the gospel in that area? And then when we suffer, when we realize that this world is not as safe or as sunshine rainbow as we would have hoped for. Which, if we’re honest, some churches, that’s what they preach. That when you become a Christian, everything’s going to be better, and all that stuff like that. But when reality hits, the fallen, cursed creation of our world, when that hits us in the form of suffering, do we have the faith to believe who God truly is and the promises that he holds out for us, even with the process of purification in the place of pain? How do we apply the gospel there? I think that’s important. And then through it all, understanding and trusting the sovereignty of God in the midst of all the twists and turns that can come to us. I think those are all practical elements in terms of how do we as ministers truly live out the gospel in those hard places, the rough places of life, and still exude the gentleness of God’s grace, and the compassion of Christ to our congregation, but also teaching them to exude it to one another as well?

Jason Daye
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Jason Daye
Yeah, and that’s so vital, I think, in the world in which we live because the world’s always needed the gospel. We know this. But we see that so evident in the challenges that we’re facing today. Eddie, you have the honor and the privilege of really pouring into the leaders of the church through seminary and the work that you do. Do you think there are leadership practices that we’ve come to maybe consider normal, or perhaps even necessary, that the gospel might actually challenge? And if so, what might those be, and how is the gospel really challenging them?

Eddie Byun
Yeah, another great question, Jason. I think I could give you an example of where I see it often in churches. Let me give an example. Okay, when you do like giving campaigns, right? When churches are, and of course it’s always for good things, right? For the mission team, for this project, it’s all great things. But what I often hear churches say is, when they show the slideshow or video of the fruits of their giving, they’ll often say this: because of your generosity, we are able to do this, right? Because of your generosity, we’re able to feed the homeless in our community. And again, I mean, that’s true to an extent, but who did you just place at the center as the hero of this project? You placed the congregation member. And I think we need to ask ourselves, again, in anything that we do, in everything that we do as pastors, we need to begin filtering it through that lens. How do I even speak of our tithes and offerings through a gospel lens? And so then, instead of saying because of your generosity, how about we put God at the center and say God is a generous God? He has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. All the blessings of Christ are ours through Him, and as He has blessed us so abundantly in America, more than so many other places in this world, as He has blessed us, we are blessed to be a blessing. We are blessed to be a blessing with the gospel message. We are blessed to be a blessing with the finances that He has given to us. And I celebrate our congregation today because we have exercised that grace of not only receiving His goodness but also being generous with that same goodness that he has given to us. And now let’s look at this video and see how that has manifested to our community. That places God at the center. You know that places the gospel at the center. And so now people not only appreciate, Yeah, I was a part of that. They appreciate, Oh my goodness, you’re right. God has so blessed my life, and so next time the opportunity comes, yeah, I want to give. Not because it was because I did it last time. It’s because I understand the gospel framework of generosity. And I think that’s an example that I’ve seen and heard often, very often in the churches, that I would love for us as leaders say, Hey, you know what? Let’s really integrate the gospel in every level of our leadership. Again, even with giving, and I would encourage just as we talked about a little bit earlier, am I integrating the gospel in my staff meetings? How I address mistakes. Are they experiencing the gospel? It’s not saying somebody made a mistake, it’s not saying you ignore it. No, but how can I bless them and build them up while still holding people accountable for certain things that maybe were a mistake, right? But do they leave encouraged by the grace of the gospel, by my leadership, or did I shame them, right? Or did I instill fear for the rest of my staff? You know, did I get them hard so that they won’t make a mistake, right? But you know, I think those are important things that pastors, we really need to think through to see is the gospel penetrating into how we do leadership?

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. That’s good. I love that. That giving example was golden, brother. As you said, they’re saying I was like, well, this is good. Every pastor who’s watching this better be taking notes.

Eddie Byun
I’ve heard that so many times.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s so good. And I love just slowing down and thinking through, as you said, just how do we take everything that we’re doing and making sure that we’re looking at it through the gospel, right? What does it mean? Everything, how we’re communicating everything, how we’re leading in every aspect, every facet. I love the gospel diamond. That’s so good, brother. One of the things that I think, Eddie, most pastors would readily agree that the gospel should shape every part of our lives as we’ve been saying, integrated into everything. But, Eddie, as your own understanding has deepened, as you’ve been sharing these different things, I’m curious, what are some implications for ministry leadership that have genuinely just surprised you, or maybe challenged you that you once assumed were right, but you see how the gospel has just really made you say, Hmm, maybe we need to think about this a little more deeply? Because I think that that’s the big thing that we face in ministry. As we said, like we really feel, I mean, the giving part was kind of a good example, but it’s like we really feel like we’re in this, we’re doing this for the Lord, right? But when we get deeper, as we mature, the gospel challenges things. I mean, Jesus made this very clear. The gospel challenges again and again and again, right? What are some of those things where the gospel really challenges us to really rethink things?

Eddie Byun
Yeah, I think one important word that I would want to give to pastors. You know, I’ve pastored for about 25-30 years. Something that I did not expect that I have seen more in these later years is how we can turn preaching and ministry into an idol. Meaning it is something that we love or trust even more than God, and I think the longer we’re in ministry, the reason why it’s important the longer we’re in ministry is because the longer you’re in anything, the more that becomes our identity. If you’ve only been a pastor for like two or three years, you’re still learning the ropes in terms of what does it mean for me to be a pastor, and so you don’t really struggle with having the pastor being the core of who I am. But man, I found that to be the case after like 15, 20, 25 years of this, that you know, once I transitioned, after 25 years of pastoring full time, I transitioned to being a seminary professor full-time. And I’ll be honest, the first couple of years were really hard because I was struggling with my identity. It was somewhat like a midlife crisis. But also, I talked to one pastor not too long ago. He recently retired after pastoring the same congregation for 50 years.  And when I was sharing with him my struggles, man, he affirmed it tenfold. He was like, That is exactly what I’m going through. Because suddenly, you’re no longer the main preacher. You’re no longer the main voice. You’re no longer as recognized and stuff. And I think that’s very dangerous because if you, as a pastor, did not experience it yet, maybe when you transition, if you get fired, if you retire, that’s where it’s going to hit you. I think that’s where we’re going to see how much have I really, again, integrated the gospel into the depth of my identity, where the primary value of who I am truly is a child of God before Him. Now, we preach it all the time. We say it all. We know the right answer in our head, but it’s only until that reality is truly challenged by a life changed circumstance, by a midlife crisis, or whatever that’s going to look like, that we really are going to see: Do I really believe the gospel? And it’s going to come out of how stressed we are. What I’m longing for again. Oh man, and if I could also be very honest, too, I think that’s why when we see a lot of these famous ministers who have fallen so often, they start up a new ministry like within a month, right? Within a few weeks. You know they’re not restored. And also, it’s very telling, for some of them, they should be disqualified forever from ministry, right? But the reason why they start up a ministry so quickly, it’s revealing that their identity as a minister, as a public figure, has become their idol. They feel like I’m gonna die without this. I can’t imagine life without this role. And we see it played out so often, still to this day. All right, all you have to do is like read like the Julie Roys report or all these other investigative journalists who are exposing a lot of things that are happening. I see it played out over and over again. Yeah, this person got kicked out one week. Three weeks later, somehow they’re starting a brand new ministry down the street. And so that tells me that, yeah, for ministers, we really need to guard our hearts against the idolatry that can surface within our hearts in terms of our role and function as preachers and pastors.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Eddie, this has been a fantastic conversation. As we wind down, brother, for pastors and ministry leaders who are they’re watching or listening in, what would you most want them to know about the gospel or what Jesus is inviting them into?

Eddie Byun
Yeah, I would want to say that you are loved even if your ministry fails. That you are deeply loved by God, and you are so valuable, even if you are a poor preacher, even if you are not successful in the eyes of this world in terms of what a successful pastor or minister looks like, you are deeply loved and valuable because you are His and you are in Him. So that’s why I want so much for you to integrate the gospel so that you’ll experience that piece of security, identity, and grounding in who we are in Christ, and I want you to be happy. There aren’t enough happy pastors. There aren’t enough happy Christians, I think, in our generation, and I think it is because we have brought in the world’s philosophy of success into our Christian world, where Jesus has done the heavy lifting for us. He’s done the hard work for us, and we need to learn to rest in Him, and allow Him to change us and to work through us. And when He does the heavy lifting, when we are resting in His good news of grace for us, everything changes. Life goes from black and white to color. And I think we also begin to answer to more and more people when they ask, How are you? We can also answer, I’m so happy today.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, brother. It’s a great word. Eddie, thank you so much for being with us. Your newest book, Gospel Integrity. Absolutely love it. It’s a joy. I love the idea of duty to beauty. It’s a gift. It’s a freedom that’s offered to us through the gospel. For those of you who are watching or listening along, we’ll have links to Eddie’s newest book, Gospel Integrity, included in the toolkit that you can find at PastorServe.org/network. We have a toolkit for this episode and every episode. Again, you can find that PastorServe.org/network. In there, you’ll find links to Eddie’s book, along with lots of other resources, including a Ministry Leader’s Growth Guide, which will include questions that are pulled out of this conversation that Eddie and I just had, that you can work through with your ministry team at your local church or ministry to dig more deeply into the conversation that we just shared. Again, you can find that PastorServe.org/network. So we encourage you to look into that. Again, Eddie, it’s always a joy to have you on the show. Thank you for taking time to be with us today.

Eddie Byun
It was my privilege and honor to be here with you, Jason. Thank you.

Jason Daye
Thank you, brother. God bless you, my friend.

Eddie Byun
Bless you, too.

Jason Daye
Here at PastorServe, we hope you are truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage BackStage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you find the show, so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend, and don’t forget our free toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.