Sustaining Faith: How Spiritual Formation in Community Links Lives : Jared Patrick Boyd

Full-Text Transcript

How do we draw people together in deeper and more meaningful ways that provides space for their questions and encourages them to flourish in their faith?

Jason Daye
In this episode, I’m joined by Jared Patrick Boyd. Jared is a pastor, a spiritual director, and the founding director of The Order of The Common Life. His most recent book is entitled Finding Freedom in Constraint. Together, Jared and I explore the hope we find in the midst of the strains the church is currently experiencing, including people walking away. Jared highlights the value of spiritual formation in community as a vital and beautiful way for relationships to deepen and endure. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to yet another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Every single week, I have the privilege to sit down with a trusted ministry leader, all in an effort to really help you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy rhythms for both your life and your ministry. We’re proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. And not only do we put a show out every single week, but we also create an entire toolkit for you and your team at your local church so you can really dig into the conversation much more deeply. You can find that at PastorServe.org/network. There, you can download the toolkit and lots of resources in there, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, which has some questions for reflection. I really encourage you to make use of that in your local church. Now, at Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders. And if you would like to experience a complimentary coaching session we encourage you to check out those details at PastorServe.org/freesession. Now, if you’re joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and take a moment to drop your name and the name of your church in the comments below. We love getting to know our audience better and we will be praying for you and for your ministry. And whether you’re joining us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe and to follow so you do not miss out on any of these great conversations. I’m excited about today’s conversation. At this time, I’d like to welcome Jared Patrick Boyd to the show. Jared, welcome. Hey, how are you doing, brother?

Jared Patrick Boyd
Doing great. Yeah, I thought I wasn’t quite in yet.

Jason Daye
You’re here, man. You’re here. Oh, awesome, brother. Hey, super excited about our conversation today. We’re going to dive into some really cool things about the idea of spiritual formation and really reimagining or maybe rediscovering spiritual disciplines and spiritual formation in regard to community and the importance of community within that. And so we’re gonna get to all of that. But, Jared, before we dive into that, I wanted to ask you a little bit in your newest book, Finding Freedom in Constraint, you talked a little bit about the church in America. One thing that you point out is that we are learning that our way of life, the way of doing church here in America, we are discovering is that it’s not really producing Jesus followers the way that we’d hoped, right? And so we find ourselves in a unique time, a unique place, I think, in the church, specifically here in America, and that we’re facing a lot of this deconstruction and reconstruction. A lot of things you said have bubbled to the surface, things that have existed but are now being more and more revealed. And there’s a tension going on in the church here in America and we’re sorting our way through, right? I would love it, Jared, if you would just share some of your observations and some of your thoughts kind of around this when it comes to the church here.

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah. I mean, obviously, there’s a lot to be said. But I think before I launch in, I just want everyone to know that I’m a pastor of a local church. I love the local church. I think it’s the only hope for the Lord, for the world. I think it’s God’s plan for the world. And so I think, when we think about church, yeah, I think we are all recognizing that we’ve got to figure out how to do some things differently. But I also want to say that I go to church every Sunday, I preach the scriptures, we sing, and we do the Eucharist. And I think all of those things are also really important. But I do think that there are 168 hours in the week, and when I grew up, and maybe when you grew up, I mean, we went to church on Sunday mornings, Sunday night, Wednesday night, and then we would probably have like a Friday night youth group. And so there was like probably maybe six or eight hours a week where I was sort of with church people leaning kind of in the same direction. And now, I think the average churchgoer goes to church 2.1 times a month, which means we get people for about four hours a month. And I think that’s kind of what we’re feeling. It’s really hard to do much work in four hours. Even if you double that, even if somebody comes to church every single week, it’s about six to seven hours of input. And that is competing with the other 166 or 68 hours of the week. So I think that’s one of the challenges that we face. And so I think one of the things that I’m thinking about is, how do we invite people into just some deeper thinking and a deeper way of life together outside of those two hours on a Sunday?

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s helpful. You know, one of the things that we’re wrestling with in regard to deconstruction and reconstruction is kind of the response of the church. In light of those things, it seems how the church responds to Jared is vital and important during these times. Can you talk to us a little bit?  Because you offer some metaphors for the church that I think are really helpful in your newest book. And some of those metaphors you talked about the church as a river, you talk about the church as a womb, and the church as a hearth. Can you talk just a little bit about kind of the church’s posture in the midst of a bit of this upheaval and the deconstruction and reconstruction? Where should we be sitting and what would be most helpful do you think in the way that we approach these things?

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah, so that first analogy of the church has a river, and the way the analogy works in my mind is that there’s this giant river of the church that is flowing in one direction, and it will continue to flow in that same direction over time. This is because it’s primarily the Lord’s work. The church belongs to God. But as we’ve seen, throughout time, the banks of the river sort of get negotiated along the way. So there are things that we don’t ever have to think about because they negotiated things in the third, fourth, and fifth centuries that we just never have to think about. We receive what was handed down to us. But in addition to receiving what’s been handed down to us, we’re also doing the work of trying to understand what the Spirit is doing. And so there’s like controversial topics, for example. So, for example, I’m a vineyard pastor. So I’m in the vineyard, and most vineyard pastors have sort of moved towards, I don’t know where your audience is, I’m just going to speak for myself, but, for example, we have women in ministry and women as lead pastors. And there’s a whole branch of the church United States that it does not have that position. And so in what we’re living through, this is just one of probably 10 or 15 either doctrinal or practical considerations that we’re navigating in the life of the church. And I’m trying to say that these are banks of the river, some of which will collapse, and some of which will need to be refortified. And our job as people in the church as leaders is to try to discern together, which of the banks are things that probably just need to sort of collapse. And which are the ones that need to be renegotiated? And which are the ones that we need to be like, No, this is actually really important. And the creeds help us here. Obviously, the formal creeds of the church up through the seventh or eighth century. These are the things that we know are just really, really important. But I think we’re going to be negotiating a lot of other things and determining what else is really, really important that we can’t give up.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s helpful. And it’s good to note that the river of the church has been overflowing banks throughout the history of the church, right? Because I think sometimes we look at it and we’re like, well, here we are in the 21st century. And all of a sudden, we have these things going on, and somehow, we have to contain it in some way, right? But the reality is that this is how the church has been operating since its inception since Jesus kind of gave the early church the mission and said, Hey, this is what it’s all about. Right?

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah, that’s right. I mean, even the whole Protestant church is just an overflowing of the previous banks in the river. And so we could have a long conversation about whether that was appropriate or not. But the reality is here we are 500 years later and all kinds of things are still being negotiated. And so I just think that we need to become people who are really slow, take on a lot less anxiety about the river as a whole, entrust the care of God’s church into God’s hands, and then have really hard conversations about what we think. And this is why the trajectory of theology is just so very important. I’m just so grateful that there are people who have devoted their lives to thinking about these things.

Jason Daye
That’s good. That’s super helpful, Jared, thank you for that. Now, in your newest book, Finding Freedom in Constraint, you really share this idea about the value of community, the church community, when it comes to spiritual formation. And the truth of the matter is kind of our default mode right now when we think of spiritual formation is we tend to really get privatized. It’s kind of a God and me approach. And that’s what’s kind of most recognized in the world today. Which at first glance can seem to somehow make sense because a lot of our spiritual formation has to do with these things that bind us up internally and that we’re wrestling and processing through. Jared, what are we really missing when it comes to approaching spiritual formation, spiritual disciplines, really just in kind of this God and me mindset?

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah, one of the things that I think we miss out on is when we do spiritual practices or spiritual formation in community I think that one of the things that we’re confronted with is our own weakness in following Jesus and I actually think it’s part of our formation. So if I have my entire spiritual life kind of privatized I never have to talk about what isn’t working for me. But if I do it in community, I have to be willing to say out loud, hey, I’m in a really hard season right now. Or I’m really wrestling through some questions or some doubts, or I’m having a hard time praying, or, man, something is sideways in my marriage right now. I mean, all of these contexts are contexts in which God is doing his formational work in us. And if we’re not doing our formational thinking in community then we’re not going to be talking about these kinds of things with people.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s key. And, Jared, how does this relate a bit to some of the challenges that we do see in the church today when it comes to, back to that conversation about deconstructing, and some of the challenges where people are looking at the church and saying, oh, man, this just really doesn’t seem to align with the heart of Jesus and those types of conversations? How does this idea of spiritual formation in community maybe help improve the way that we look at church as a whole?

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah, I think I would just say that I feel really sad that people are leaving the church. But they’re leaving as individuals. And so if an individual says, This isn’t working for me anymore, I can just leave. Then it’s just like, well, what were we doing before that anyway if you think you can just sort of leave this family? Now, obviously, I think that there are, and I even say in the book, look, there are churches you have to move on from, like the river is stinky in some cases. And it’s totally fine to sort of paddle downstream a little bit or paddle upstream and try to find some fresher water for yourself. But I think part of what we’re living through in the mass exodus of the church is that we have taught people to think that their life with Jesus is an individual thing. And so then if the community thing is no longer working then I as an individual can just sort of eject and I can try to go do my own thing. That’s the thing that I think we need to sort of correct for in some ways, which means we need to radically deepen people’s commitment to one another and to the church, so that when things get hard it’s not like, well, this is just my decision. This is something that we’re doing together. And I think that that could take a generation to really close the gap between the individuality that we are experiencing in the church in America and the communal nature of the church as we hoped for it, at least as I hoped for it.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s very helpful. And it seems like we’ve, in some ways, created the ability for people to leave or to really deconstruct and to do kind of their own thing. We’ve helped almost nurture that ability by moving away from these kinds of communal aspects of spiritual formation that have been present historically in the church, we’ve seen they have been present. But we’ve just tended to kind of get away from that and have kind of made the whole soul care or spiritual formation piece all kind of internal, a me and God type of a thing. And so, Jared, in your book, Finding Freedom in Constraint, you really invite us into looking at spiritual practices, specific spiritual practices, that lend themselves to and really embrace the idea of community in the midst of those practices, which was just super helpful. And just a note for those of you watching and listening along. Pastors and ministry leaders, with each of these, Jared, at the end of each chapter on each of these, Jared breaks down what’s next. Steps to dig in more deeply specifically for pastors and ministry leaders. He also does that for small groups and for parents, which is super helpful. But just to note that this is a very practical book because Jared went that extra step, as a pastor himself, thinking about how we incorporate these into our local churches in our ministry. So I love that, Jared. I just wanted to highlight that so I didn’t forget it because that was one of the things that really stood out to me in this book. But for these different practices, now, you entitled the book Finding Freedom in Constraint, which almost sounds like an oxymoron. You know, it’s pretty ironic. So talk to us a little bit about this relationship between freedom and constraint to start off before we dive into some of these practices.

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah. So after an initial chapter on the church as river, womb, and hearth, I talk about freedom in constraint in the subsequent chapters and I’m really pulling on an ancient idea of freedom. So when we think about freedom, we often think about freedom as the ability to basically do what we want. And we think about the thing that generally gets in the way of us expressing our freedom as something external to us and so we feel sort of constrained from the outside. The freedom that I’m talking about that’s rooted in the early church fathers and mothers is more like an internal freedom to do what I really, really, most deeply desire. And the case that I’m making, and I think it’s the case from the early church and I’m drawing on the monastic tradition, is that the things that prevent us from actually being able to do what we want are found inside of us. We are addicted to things, we grab ahold of things, and we allow different patterns of thinking and different habits to really direct our lives in a way that we think we have control over. But in reality, I think most of us realize, wait, actually I’m really bumping up against things that are inside of me that are preventing me from loving in the way that I want to love, being the husband that I want to be, or being the father that I want to be. So the tradition of spiritual disciplines and a shared communal way of life together can help us basically become present to all of the things that are happening inside of us that are preventing us from doing what we really, really want in the end. So I draw on the tradition of Evagrius and John Kassian from the early church fathers, and they talk about the passions. Things like lust, greed, avarice, gluttony, vain glory, pride, and a form of sadness that feels like envy. These are really the things that are, in the end, sort of bending our life in a way that we don’t want to go. And so, practicing spiritual disciplines enables us to get a very clear picture of what’s actually at work inside of us so that then we can invite God to bring us into a greater sense of freedom from those things.

Jason Daye
Yeah, excellent. Now, Jared, I want to ask you a question from the perspective of us as pastors and ministry leaders. When we think about spiritual formation, oftentimes we think about it in our own life. Once again, our own kind of devotional life, per se. But then we think about spiritual formation for our people, like we’re talking about discipleship pathways and all these sorts of things. But the need for community in our spiritual formation is vitally important for us as leaders, pastors and ministry leaders. We often feel like we’re the, I don’t know, the experts in the room, we’re the trained vocational ministry leaders. And so somehow we have to impart this and help make sure that others are engaging in these types of communal forms of spiritual formation. But, oftentimes, when we see this across the board, pastors aren’t engaging themselves, right? So, Jared, can you talk to us a little bit about what might it look like for pastors and ministry leaders themselves to be engaging in kind of this community idea when it comes to spiritual formation? What were some ways that you’ve seen this in your own life and the lives of some of your colleagues that have been really impactful?

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah, I mean, several times throughout the book, this is a book that is really more of a slow read and a slow practice. So I think you could probably take a year to implement what I’m trying to unpack in this book. And several times in the book I’m encouraging pastors and leaders in particular to not go ahead and try to rally a bunch of people to do the work in this book, do the work yourself first. So gather a small team around you of friends or your colleagues. So my advice, actually, to leaders is to practice all of this stuff first before trying to sort of bring your church along. So this is not like, hey, buy 10 cases of books for your whole church and let’s go through it in three months kind of plan. This is more like buy some books and gather five or six people and lean into this for a year. And then see how you might lead your church through some deeper practices like this. So I just think, as leaders and pastors, we have to dig really deep wells in our own lives. There’s this principle from St. Ignatius of Loyola, who basically says you can’t give away what you don’t have. And I’m just inviting pastors to do the really deep work and then have a well from which they can give away. Not just a well of their own self, but like, if a pastor could stand up a year from now and say, Hey, me and a dozen close friends in this church have been working through some deep way of life kinds of disciplines. And we’ve been doing it now for a year and then invite the church into it. That’s what I’m mostly interested in.

Jason Daye
Yeah. That’s powerful. Yeah, definitely powerful. Alright, Jared, let’s dig in a little bit to some of these practices. If you could just kind of touch on some of them in the time we have together here, I’d love to hear it. And then also, in terms of a pastor or ministry leader. Maybe let me do it this way, Jared. Could you share what you think are some of these disciplines that might be easier for a pastor or ministry leader to lean into? And let’s start with a couple of those. And then let’s get to some that might be more challenging for them to lead their team through.

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah, oh, gosh. I don’t know that I’ve ever thought about it that way. I don’t think anything here is super easy. Though the way that the book is structured is it begins with the practice of solitude and silence, which is the most sort of thing that we do by ourselves. And it ends with the practice of discernment in community, which is the most communal of the things. And this is interesting. This is my thought for the moment, Jason. I think the things that we can do more by ourselves as leaders are probably easier for us than the things that we will have to rely on other people for. Because I think some of the nature of pastoral ministry in particular in leadership is there’s a real strength that we have in drawing away, thinking, planning, and thinking about how we’re going to execute or how we’re going to build sort of a team around this idea that we have. And that’s part of what it means to be a leader is to have a sense and a direction. And then to try to gather people around the thing that you’ve sort of created inside. And of course, you’re bringing other people along the way. But for pastors and leaders to really open up their lives to other people. I think that that’s going to be really hard. I think it’s going to be really hard. So this first practice of solitude and silence I think is easier by virtue of the fact that it’s something that you can do by yourself. But what I’m inviting people into is to have a group of trusted friends that, okay, we’re all going to be leaning into this practice together. And we’re going to come back together and we’re going to talk about how it was for us. And more importantly, what came up when you leaned into trying to pay really close attention to what’s happening at some of the deepest places inside of you? Being willing to say out loud what you notice is actually happening in your heart and soul to another group of people, that’s pretty vulnerable, I think. So, yeah, it’s an interesting question that you asked.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. And I think that that’s a helpful response because as I was reading through the book, I saw kind of a progression through the book, as well. And when you get to the end, when it’s the discernment within community, that discipline. That, by far, I think, as you mentioned, is the most, I think you’ve even mentioned it in the book as kind of like the most radical shift for your ministry team in your local church. So let’s talk about that a little bit. Because that discernment piece, discernment within community, as you’ve kind of alluded to, is not necessarily something that we practice regularly as pastors and ministry leaders. So oftentimes, we do our work and then we kind of come and download it a little bit and get a little feedback, maybe. But you’re writing and talking about something that’s deeper than that when it comes to this discernment within community. So can you unpack that for us a little bit, Jared?

Jared Patrick Boyd
That practice of discernment in community in particular? Yeah, I think that, at the most basic level, it’s a practice that says that in the major decisions of my life, I’m not going to make those decisions by myself. And then, increasingly, in the not-so-major but even just medium-grade decisions, I’m going to invite the input and the feedback of other people to pray with me and to discern with me around what I should do. So for example, even in writing this book. Writing a book is a lot of work. It’s a lot of time. And I had a contract in front of me, so I invited some of my close friends and my board to effectively have the final say about whether or not I was going to write the book. I said, Here’s my desire, here’s what I think God is doing in my life. Here’s what I want to do. And I’m not going to make the final decision. I want to sort of hand that over to you all to speak into my life and to tell me what you think you see in my life. Now, in this decision everyone was like, Yeah, this sounds great. But I talked to my family, told them what it was going to cost in terms of my time and energy, and gave them a voice to speak into that for me. So, at the root of this, what we’re doing is we’re trusting our life into the hands of other people who we know love us and care about us as well. So it’s the constraint of one another that I’m trying to help lead people into.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. And that can be really challenging, especially when we live in a society that really focuses on leadership as you’re in there, you’re making the hard calls, you’re making the decisions, you’re setting the pace, and you’re getting everyone to kind of fall in line type of a thing. To pull back and lean into that constraint, as you said, and to really invite people into not the decision that has been made but the decision-making process, that discernment process, I think is super powerful. Jared, as we kind of wind down this conversation, it has been excellent. Thank you for your insights. I’d love to give you the opportunity to share just some words of encouragement with pastors and ministry leaders who are watching or listening along. What words would you like to share with them?

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah, I would say that I feel very hopeful about the church. I think what’s happening right now is people are either deciding that they don’t want to give their lives to this. And that’s okay. For some people, it’s like, people are hitting burnout, and mental health issues are pretty high. I do think that there is also something happening where I am a spiritual director so I talk to a lot of pastors and I do spiritual direction for a lot of pastors. And my experience is that there are also a lot of pastors and leaders who are sort of double downing on their call, specifically. Because I mean, at this point, I think there’s almost no reason to be a pastor unless you’re really called to it. And so I would say to pastors listening to this to do deep, deep work of discernment for the next season of what is God actually calling you to? And if, after a deep, deep discernment, you’re still feeling like man, I really feel like God’s inviting me to continue pastoring or to continue to be in ministry in some way. That’s a pretty special call. At this point, with how much carnage is left. I think 40% of people have left the church in the past like 25 or 30 years. We’re in a very different season than the generation ahead of us. And I actually feel really excited about it. It feels like something really real is happening. And there’s a chapter in the book, one of the practices is the practice of formational healing. And it’s this idea that we will continue to commit to allow God to continue to convert us and to continue to do the inner work inside of us. And I think my encouragement to pastors is to let God do it, let God do the deep, deep work that needs to be done because I think this is the future of leadership.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, Jared. Love that, man. It’s been so great to be with you. Jared, if people want to connect with you, with your ministry, and learn more about the book, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah, I have a website, jaredpatrickboyd.com and it links out to a couple of places where you can find me.

Jason Daye
Awesome, very cool. And you guys can find those links, we’ll link to Jordan’s website and also to the book so you can find the book Finding Freedom in Constraint. And you can get all those details in the toolkit at PastorServe.org/network. So be sure to check that out. Jared it’s been an absolute pleasure to have you hanging out with us today. Thank you for making the time and making space in your schedule to share your heart. And I really want to encourage those who are watching or listening along to really think through what it means to be the church in community. Not just “on mission”. Not just doing our worship gatherings. But what does it mean to be doing the deeper work of spiritual formation within community? And let God energize your heart for that. So thank you, Jared. I appreciate it.

Jared Patrick Boyd
My pleasure. It’s great to be here. Thank you so much.

Jason Daye
God bless you, brother.

Jared Patrick Boyd
Yeah, you too.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.