Is Anxiety Impacting Your Ministry? : Alan Fadling

Full-Text Transcript

In an anxious world, how can we honestly assess if anxiety is showing up in our lives and ministries?

Jason Daye
In this episode, I’m joined by Alan Fadling. Alan is the president and founder of Unhurried Living. Alan speaks and consults with ministry organizations around the world. He is an award-winning author, and his most recent book is entitled A Non-Anxious Life. Together, Alan and I discuss how we can intentionally and thoughtfully address the anxiety in our lives. Alan also shares how anxiety might be impacting the way we serve, even if we do not feel overly anxious. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage, I’m your host Jason Daye. Every single week I have the honor and the privilege really to sit down with a trusted ministry leader and we dive into a topic all in an effort to help you and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy and sustainable rhythms for both your life and your ministry. And we are proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. And you can learn more about not only what we do at Pastor Serve but dig into this conversation more deeply at PastorServe.org/network. You see, every single week, not only do we have a conversation like this, but we also create an entire toolkit that’s freely available to you and your ministry team at your local church so that you can indeed dig more deeply into the topic that we discussed. So be sure to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. And there you’ll find a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, along with a lot of other great resources for you on your journey and for your ministry team. So check that out. And then, at Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders. And we would love to walk alongside you. We’re offering a complimentary coaching session. And if you’ve ever been interested in what it might be like to engage with a ministry coach, we encourage you to check out PastorServe.org/freesession, where you can learn more details about how you could get a complimentary coaching session for yourself. Now, if you’re joining us on YouTube please give us a thumbs up and take a moment and drop your name and the name of your church in the comments below. We love getting to know our audience better, and our team will be praying for you and for your ministry. So be sure to do that. And whether you’re joining us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe and follow so you do not miss out on any of these great conversations. As I said, I’m looking forward to today’s conversation. At this time, I’d like to welcome Alan Fadling to the show. Alan, welcome, brother.

Alan Fadling
Thank you, Jason. Good to be with you.

Jason Daye
Yeah, it’s good to have you back on FrontStage BackStage. Very excited to be digging into the topic that we’re going to tackle today. Because, Alan, it’s one that many of us who are in leadership and ministry wrestle with, and that is the idea of anxiety. Alan, to kind of kick off our conversation, I was thinking through how oftentimes we think of anxiety, and we kind of say, okay, anxiety, worry. Got it. And that’s kind of how it shows up in our lives. But what are some other ways? Definitely, worry is a piece of anxiety. But what are some other ways that anxiety kind of manifests itself in our lives, Alan?

Alan Fadling
Well, it may be easiest to answer you by sharing a little bit of my own experience, which is to say, having now, as of the beginning of this year, been in vocational ministry for 40 years. Writing this book caused me to realize how much anxiety had driven a lot of what I did in the context of local church leadership, and then more recently, in just general nonprofit leadership. So yes, worry as a sort of personal little side habit is one thing. Being driven by anxiety to do certain things in certain ways. So, for example, I think anxiety drives a lot of the people-pleasing that sometimes arrives in our ministry activity. I do what I do because I want people to come, or to like me, or to like what I did. And that is not my best move. And often, anxiety is a major part of what’s underneath that. I also think that for me anxiety has been a significant driver of my busyness level. When I proposed this book, I told the publisher Look, the more I talk with leaders about hurry, the more hurry sounds like anxiety. So I think with our theme of Unhurried Living, I think anxiety is one of the main reasons it’s hard to follow Jesus’s way of being unhurried.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And you’ve done a lot of championing this idea of unhurried living. You’ve written several books, even devotionals, your ministry kind of encapsulates this and is trying to encourage people to step into this unhurried rhythm, a more beautiful rhythm. And so it makes sense that anxiety ties in there as kind of the big culprit that keeps us from slowing down, from finding that rhythm of rest and peace in Christ and what he’s called us to do. In ministry, that can be a challenge because we feel like there’s always something next, there’s always something to do. It’s kind of 24/7, right? There’s always something more we can do when it comes to living out God’s mission. Alan, how can we kind of process through this idea of, there’s always something that can be done? And that sense of I’m called to this, right? I want to honor God. I want to do my best without that becoming something that’s driving us further away from God’s best for our lives, right?

Alan Fadling
Right. Well, the first thing you have to say is ministry is never done, right? In any kind of caring profession, there will always be someone else with a need. There will always be something that needs a little more attention. There will always be a creative project that you’re going to spend another hour on than the number of hours you did. Whatever it is. So first of all, you just have to acknowledge that. The thing I realized about my anxiety is that my anxiety is what my care looks like when God’s not very big in the picture. See, when I am frantically worried about this community I lead or this organization that I’ve founded, or whatever. My care is huge. And God’s care is little. What I’m trying to learn how to do is I do care. I care immensely about the people that God’s given me to mentor, to coach, or to encourage. God cares more. Way more. My anxiety flourishes when my awareness of God’s present care grows thin. So what I’ve sometimes said is that really practically speaking, my worrying, especially in my ministry, is a kind of practicing the absence of God, instead of practicing the presence of God.

Jason Daye
Wow, yeah, that kind of hits the nail on the head. And it gives us all an opportunity to pause, right? Because when you say that, I mean, that’s the reality. The reality is, whenever we get so caught up and anxious and really pushing into something, oftentimes, it’s because we’re trying to shoulder more of a burden than God’s even given us. And the challenge, I think, Alan, is that oftentimes that comes from a really good place, right? Because we do care, like you said, we do care. So how do we balance that idea that man, we really care about these people God has entrusted to us? We care about this vision, this mission God has entrusted to us. How do we balance that sense of care without flipping over the edge or stepping over the edge into that anxiety-inducing reality that we can find ourselves in in ministry?

Alan Fadling
So there are probably a number of ways. I think of one that has been really important for me more recently, and that is to realize that my praying for people is one of the best things I can do for them and for me. When I pray for somebody, when I pray for an event I’m responsible for, when I pray for a community that God’s entrusted to my care, when I pray for them I’m remembering that God is there. I’m asking God to be gracious. I’m recognizing that God is present. I’m not asking him to be present. He’s already good at that. But I’m recognizing that he’s present. That practice, suddenly now praying for people isn’t just a nice thing I do on the side, it’s more of an engine for how I continue my right-sized care for the people and processes that I tend. And that’s what I need. That’s how I remember that the yoke Jesus invited me to is really well-fitting. It is not burdensome. It’s not too much for me. Anxiety says it is. And the more I listened to anxiety like it was some wonderful counselor, like it had great advice for me. Really good information about what I should do now and in the near future. The more I do that, the more the burden becomes heavy. The more I think this all lands on me. I mean, I imagined that somehow God gave me this ministry as this trust that now has just completely landed in my arms. Now, I’m the only one who’s carrying it. No, the yoke image says Jesus is doing something. Jesus cares about his world. Jesus is good at what he does. And he’s very happy to have us join him in what he’s responsible for and what he’s doing. That’s a different vision than I’ve sometimes had in the way I thought about my ministry.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s excellent, Alan. Now, in your most recent book, A Non-Anxious Life, one of the things that really kind of spoke to me as I was reading through it had to do with a few things that you really encourage us to lean deeply into instead of anxiety. Or maybe as a healing practice beyond anxiety. And I’d like to step through these three different things that you really highlight. You talked about joy, hope, and contentment, right? And as I was reading through that, Alan, I gotta tell you, I was thinking through ministry. And the idea of when we launch into ministry, as you know, in the beginning stages, we feel God has called us into something. And there’s a lot of joy. There’s a lot of hope. There’s a lot of contentment in those early moments, right? Because you’re like, Okay, this is it, man, I get to do this. What I’m passionate about is what God’s called me to. I get to do this for a living, right? I mean, this is amazing. I get to step into this each and every day. And then we run into kind of the real life and we run into the fact that we live in a fallen world. And sometimes the joy, and the hope, and the contentment, all three of those things in different ways, can be hard to come by, or more challenging for us to experience. So, Alan, can you walk us through each of those? And kind of from the perspective of how do we lean more deeply into them? And how do they each individually, specifically, speak into the anxiety that we often carry around with us in ministry?

Alan Fadling
Yeah, well, maybe what I can do is kind of think out loud about those. So, you know, joy is definitely a fruit of the spirit, it’s in the list of nine. Contentment, maybe it’s implicit. Hope, maybe it’s implicit. But the thing about joy, is joy and peace are very good friends as fellow fruits of the Spirit. Like they go together really well. I heard someone recently say that shalom, that biblical idea, is really the marriage of joy and peace. It’s what joy and peace together look like. The thing I would say is that sometimes what we think is joy, is really more of like excitement rooted in anxiety. It’s excitement rooted in anxiety. We’re desperate for people to like the thing we’re doing and to get excited about it. And so we sort of stir things up. Joy doesn’t need any of that. Joy comes from a person with whom we’re in relationship. That’s what being a fruit of the spirit means. And so what I’ve found is that sometimes I’m looking to ministry, in my anxiety, I’m looking to ministry to give me something I need to feel less anxious. Whereas joy doesn’t need something from ministry. Joy arises from communion with God, who is abundance personified. See, again, anxiety paints a scarcity vision of my present and my future. Joy is not that at all. Joy is an abundance orientation. So to me, that sense of how the fruits of the Spirit come together is an important insight, that joy is never going to be good friends with anxiety. They’re just they’re just oil and water, they just don’t go together. They’re from different neighborhoods altogether. As far as hope, that is another abundance vision of the future. But it’s not rooted in outcomes. See, a lot of times what happens is we assume that we can only have hope for the future if we have a sense that the outcomes are somehow guaranteed. Like we can keep having that up and to the right sort of line for all the things we do. Hope is never rooted in that. Hope is, again, rooted in a person, the God of hope. We hope in God. But in ministry, a lot of times we hope in all kinds of other things, right? We hope this thing we’ve just planned is going to draw even more people to this organization, or this church, or whatever. So right-sizing my hope, putting my hope in God, and letting that become an energy source. Letting that become a kind of motivation just like joy can be. Joy can strengthen us, hope can lighten our hearts and energize us for the next step. And then contentment, it’s a weird one. It’s a very non-American virtue. You never see a commercial rooted in contentment. You see them rooted in greed. You see them rooted in dissatisfaction. You see them rooted in envy. You see them rooted in all kinds of things. And sadly, a lot of that can show up in the way we communicate even the things we’re offering to God’s people in our churches and ministries. Contentment is realizing I already have the things I most need. Because again, contentment is rooted mostly in a person. Not in a well yeah, I guess my wallet’s full enough, my closet’s full enough, and my garage is full enough. Now I can be content. Contentment never works that way. It’s not about how many things are filling up my insights, it’s about realizing who is with me already. That that ‘who’ has an amazing work already going and that I can enjoy what I already have. Gratitude helps me with that. Gratitude is a way of seeing that my path has been more abundant and generous than I can possibly imagine. Anxiety writes all that off, and says, yeah, what have you done for me lately, and just forgets that grace is present. So to me, those three, joy, hope, and contentment, are signs, in a sense, of when my life is rooted in peace. And when those have grown thin, often, they’re signs that my life is far more rooted in anxiety than I’d like to admit.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s very helpful, Alan. As we think about this anxiety that we can experience in ministry as pastors and ministry leaders. Alan, how can we better understand maybe the roots of anxiety, specifically when it comes to ministry? Because oftentimes, I think that in ministry, we don’t want to necessarily admit that we’re anxious because that somehow means we are saying, well, we’re not really dependent on God. So what are some of the things that are kind of the roots of anxiety in our lives as pastors and ministry leaders that we might be able to identify that today we might be just kind of glossing over? But really, they are kind of rooted in this sense of being anxious in our lives and our ministries.

Alan Fadling
Well, so first of all, I’ve written this book and thereby admitted that this is a struggle of my entire 60-some years of life. I think we would serve our people, those we lead and those we care for, much better if we would be honest about things like this. I think they need to see us as people who still need grace and still need mercy. As far as the dynamic for me, part of it is anxiety is rooted in a thinness of being aware of God’s love. The greatest commandment hasn’t changed. I mean, the great commandment is just the same with iPhones, social media, and all the stuff that’s brand new for us. This is still that which matters most. And anxiety, as I said earlier, is a way of being that sort of has a very thin vision that God is there and cares for me, and cares for the people whom I lead or serve. That is one of the big, big, big ones. It’s why I think someone like John in his three letters, a John who’s probably 90-something, just couldn’t say it any simpler than, so we know and we rely on the love that God has for us. God is love. This is the vision that has spoken to my anxiety in profoundly deep levels. See, anxiety says, oh, no, you’ve just been unpleasantly surprised. Something just happened and you don’t like it and you are in danger. If you’re not in mortal danger, the success of what you’re about to do is in danger. And this is the false prophet dynamic of anxiety. How many times has anxiety said something about our immediate future and been wrong? Wildly wrong. And then I keep trusting it like it’s some cabinet member who just has perfect information for me. No, I think I’m going to right-size the wisdom level of anxiety. I think another thing to recognize is that another one of the opposites of anxiety is trust. Faith and belief when Jesus says, Don’t worry. I don’t think he’s shaking his finger at us with his eyebrows sort of down and you knock that off, you stop that right now. I think what he’s saying is, you really don’t have to worry. I mean, worry is a mistake about reality. Worry says, You’ve forgotten that there’s a God who’s so good at caring, he cares for birds, that you see every single day of your life, who don’t do one blessed thing to take care of themselves. They’re not planting anything, they’re not investing anything, they’re doing nothing. And God is taking wonderful care of them. Don’t you think, maybe, he’ll do even at least that much, if not more for you being made in his very image, being his very sons and daughters? So to me, those have been the dynamics. At its heart, I think being able to come as a non-anxious presence to those we serve is one of the great gospel gifts I think we can give them. It’s a way of helping them see this good news is even better than you think. And it really works in the real world that we live in.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s powerful, Alan. So let’s lean into that a little bit. Because I think that a non-anxious presence is really key and ministry. Especially, I was gonna say, especially in the world in which we live today, but probably throughout history people have said that same thing. But for us what we’re facing right now is a challenging world. It’s a challenging society, a challenging culture. We’re more aware of things going on. Whether we want to know or not, whether they’re trivial or not, we know. Because we live in a world that’s connected so deeply, right? And so as we are kind of looking at the world in which we live, we’re thinking about how we show up as a non-anxious presence within our churches, within our ministries, and around those whom we serve. How can we better lean into that reality? What does that look like practically speaking? Because we live in an anxious society, no doubt about it. So help us, Alan, as we think through, how do we show up in those ways.

Alan Fadling
Oh, I think one of the things to remember is that Jesus is very concerned about that which worries us. But it doesn’t worry him. Father, Son, and Spirit are not in the heavens chewing on their fingernails about the last three years. But they care. And actually, they are doing something about their care. The thing I think we have to realize is our worry is unproductive. It’s actually not helping me, it’s not helping the person I’m worrying about. See, I grew up in a family, our family equation, no one ever wrote it on a blackboard, or a whiteboard, right? Our family equation was anxiety equals care. Like you only prove you care if you frantically worry about someone or something. Except if you’ve ever been on the other side of that kind of worrying, it doesn’t feel like being cared for. It feels a little bit more like Man, I better do something different so they stop worrying so much, right? That can happen in ministry, too. It looks like we care for the congregation or for this community but maybe our frantic worry is actually putting pressure on people. And they have to figure out what it is they need to do to help the poor leader not worry so much. So that’s where this revised equation I’ve come to realize is really something more like anxiety equals care minus God. That’s really what my care looks like when God grows thin and small in a picture. My Care becomes a huge mountain. And God’s care is a little foothill in my awareness. Well, obviously, something’s wrong with his picture. My cares, big as they are, political tension, cultural stresses, or personal interior anxiety. I mean, like I said, I’m in my 60s. These have been among the most anxious years I’ve witnessed in my lifespan. And statistics will bear that out. So we don’t minimize the reality of our cares, we just put them in the context of a greater care. If you just read a little bit of church history, you realize there have been seasons in the life of the church that have been far heavier, far harder, and far more painful than these very heavy days that we find ourselves living in. And somehow our mothers and fathers in the faith have been able to live with a sense of confidence in the care of God in the middle of those moments. That will help us right-size the significant concerns we face because they are in a bigger context, the context of God’s greater care. He’s the Good Shepherd. Still is. That didn’t end with Psalm 23 or John 10. He is the Good Shepherd.

Jason Daye
Yes, that’s good. That’s, excellent, brother. Alan, talk to us a little bit, speaking to pastors and ministry leaders, what words of encouragement would you have for them, you know, really, really, practically speaking, when it comes to them trying to process through the reality for their own lives as the beloved of God, as a husband, a wife, a mother, a father, but then also as a pastor and ministry leader? What words would you leave for those who are serving the frontlines of ministry?

Alan Fadling
Yeah, so there’s a sentence I remember hearing Dallas Willard speak, and he had those sort of time-bomb lines that would sink into the back of your head and then explode and completely change your thinking. And one of the things he said more than once was anything you could do in anxiety, you really could do a lot better in peace. And one of the things that I want to say to ministry leaders is, I wonder if any of you like me, at some point, imagined that anxiety was an asset. Like I kind of needed it. It drove me, pushed me to high activity levels, high performance levels. I mean, I got a lot done. But when I heard that sentence I had to revisit, is Dallas Willard right or am I right about my anxiety? I mean, or make it a little more potent, am I right or is Jesus right about my anxieties? So what I want to say to leaders is peace gives me access to green energy. Anxiety, if it’s fuel, burns dirty. And maybe in my 20s and 30s, it really drove me 40s, not so much in my 50s and 60s, I can feel it now. It is not a good source of fuel. It just isn’t. So better to change over early on, than to wait down the road. Peace gives me access to hope, access to joy, access to contentment, access to Holy zeal, like, all of the sorts of energy sources you’d love to have abundant in you. Peace is the gateway to those. Anxiety is not. Anxiety is not a fruit of the Spirit. So it may sound weird to say, anxiety is an asset, but I just realized it was something I believed. I was afraid of what would happen if I didn’t have it. Like, would I do anything anymore? Because I was afraid, right? My family equation was anxiety equals care. So if you take off anxiety, you have to take off care.

Jason Daye
Wow. Yeah. Very interesting. That in ministry, as we’re talking about serving and caring, anxiety can also be a driver. That keeps us going and makes us feel like yeah, we’re actually doing ministry, right? I mean, that’s kind of what you’re processing through here, Alan, right?

Alan Fadling
That’s exactly right. And for me at first, it felt rather subtle. But the more I leaned into that, the more I realized my care absent of an awareness of God’s care really can’t do very much. It’s my care rooted in and surrounded by the Greater unfailing wider than wide, deeper than deep, higher than high, longer than long, all of that. God’s care being the place where I do what I do. That gives me a spacious place to lead, serve, and to care. But it’s when that awareness grows thin that my cares get bigger, and then they feel like anxiety instead of genuine care. That’s been huge for me. And so that’s why I said earlier, praying for people is a great way to right-size my care. It’s a great way to remember God’s care is always bigger. So, golly, sometimes I just when I’m praying for people, my only prayer will just be a thank you. Because I just think you’re doing such good work already, God, in the lives of these people even apart from me, but thanks for including me. Thanks for using me. Thanks for inviting me. And I’m glad for this to be one more way I get to live in friendship with you.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that brother. I love that. One last thing to kind of lean into. And it’s kind of a biggie I think in ministry for us. That is when things don’t go as anticipated. Right? Things you prayed, you’ve worked, you’ve leaned into this, you’ve really stepped into something, and you’re anticipating something beautiful to come of it, right? Something meaningful, significant, something that’ll make an impact on others’ lives. And all for good things, right? All for Kingdom things. And yet, it doesn’t turn out the way we had hoped or thought. And sometimes that can be pretty devastating. Not only not turn out, but it can crash and burn, and we can feel that in our lives. When we find ourselves in those places on our ministry journey, Alan, how do we avoid letting anxiety overcome us in those times?

Alan Fadling
Yeah. Well, I mean, maybe a good story would be to share, you know, we’ve lived here in Orange County, California for 25 years now, last summer. We moved here to help plant a church. Two or three years after we got here that church folded. It didn’t feel very good. As an organizational endeavor, it failed. But I will have breakfast or lunch with some of the people that I got to know in that little church in the next few weeks. And God is at work in them. And I still get to bless them. It doesn’t happen the way I thought it was going to. I don’t have something to show on my resume. That’s still alive church, and there are reasons that it didn’t make it. So just think one thing is I think we’re notoriously bad at assessing whether something’s bad or something’s good. Now, if something didn’t succeed the way I wanted it to, you can say that. But it’s okay to ask if what I wanted or not, was the most important thing. I always say this, God is so good at what he does. And he is going to build His kingdom. And he is happy to use us. And it may not happen in a way that makes my resume look great. But it will be good, and it will be productive, and it will be fruitful. And if I can be okay with that. I can work with great energy and great zeal and great persistence and perseverance without a sense that I am desperate for certain outcomes to feel good about what I’ve done.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s super helpful. Brother, as always, it’s good to hang out with you. Thanks for making time to hang out with us. A Non-Anxious Life is your most recent book and I really encourage those who are watching along or listening along to check it out. I think this is key for anybody, I think it’s going to be something that’ll be helpful for people that you’re ministering to and ministering alongside of. But really, this really hits home for us in ministry. And I really believe it’s going to be a great help to you. So A Non-Anxious Life by Alan Fadling. And you can find links to the book, links to Alan’s ministry, and a lot of the other resources that he and his team put out there, which we’re very grateful for. You can find that in the toolkit for this episode at PastorServe.org/network. So you can be sure to check that out, find all those links, and have the opportunity to connect with Alan as well. So, brother, once again, thank you for making the time to hang out with us.

Alan Fadling
Oh, it’s always good to be with you, Jason. Thanks for the invite.

Jason Daye
All right, God bless you, my friend.

Alan Fadling
And you.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.