Soul Care for the Exhausted Leader : Mindy Caliguire

Full-Text Transcript

Do you experience feelings of exhaustion, overwhelm, maybe isolation, or even burnout?

Jason Daye
If so, then I believe this conversation will be a blessing to you. In this episode, I am joined by Mindy Caliguire. Mindy is the founder and president of Soul Care, an organization committed to helping leaders cultivate healthy souls, both for themselves and the people they serve. Mindy has served in a number of ministry roles, and her newest book is entitled Ignite Your Soul. Together, Mindy and I explore how we can reframe our perspective of caring for our own souls to view it as an invitation rather than another item on our to-do list. Mindy then shares some incredible ideas and examples of how we can begin prioritizing our own soul care. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another insightful episode of Frontstage Backstage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Every single week, I have the honor and privilege of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and we dive into a conversation all in an effort to help you and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy, sustainable rhythms and really flourish in both life and leadership. We are proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. Not only do we have a conversation every week, but our team creates an entire toolkit that complements this conversation. In that toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, which has questions and insights for you to reflect on, process through, and take the ministry leadership of your local church through as well, to process and see how this conversation impacts your particular context. So be sure to check that out. You can find that toolkit at PastorServe.org/network, and you can find toolkits for every single episode there, so be sure to head over to PastorServe.org/network for that awesome resource. Now, at Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside ministry leaders, and if you would like to learn more about how you could receive a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, you can head over to PastorServe.org/freesession for those details. Now, if you’re joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and take a moment to drop your name and the name of your church in the comments below. We absolutely love getting to know our audience better. Our team will be praying for you and your ministry. So be sure to drop that in the comments down there. Whether you’re joining us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe or to follow. We do not want you to miss out on any of these great conversations, and be sure to share with a friend or a ministry colleague about Frontstage Backstage as a resource for them as well. At this time, I would like to welcome Mindy Caliguire to the show. Mindy, welcome.

Mindy Caliguire
Hey there, Jason. How are you?

Jason Daye
I’m well. Good to have you back on Frontstage Backstage. It’s always a joy to dive into these conversations with you because we have kindred spirits. We both are in the work of serving ministry leaders and pastors, and it’s a joy to do that sort of work. So it’s always exciting to hang out with you, Mindy. As we dive in today, I would love for you to share with us a little bit about something and you touched on this. You have a new book out called Ignite Your Soul. In that book, you touched on this idea of the invitation we have to enter into caring for our souls versus what oftentimes we might think, and that is, oh, caring for our souls, soul care, all of these practices, this is something else to add to my list, right? Maybe I’m speaking for myself, but I know the idea of thinking through this, and I’m busy. I’ve got a lot going on, I’m juggling a lot of balls in the air right now, and soul care sounds great. Love the idea of it, but how do I fit that into my life? So, it almost can become, for us, a task versus an invitation. I love how you laid out as kind of an invitation. So let’s start there because I think that’s an important place to start.

Mindy Caliguire
Yeah, no, thank you. I do agree, and I resonate with that, right? It’s like, if somebody says, Hey, I’ve got this great idea to make your life better, and it’ll just take time, and you’re already like, I can’t even make all the current things fit. How do I possibly add one more thing? A lot of times, that’s some of the feedback I’ve gotten when initially working with people on this topic. It does take a little bit of time and unpacking to say, how can we reframe how we’re even thinking about investing in the care of your soul as a first-order priority? I might circle back to that, but as a first-order priority, as you said, as an invitation rather than another thing to add to your already overwhelming list of things to do. So, there’s an image that’s coming to my mind. I don’t even know if this is in the book. It might be. I don’t know. I’ve often thought we use the metaphor of the pie plate. How do you have the different things that each get a portion of your life? Then how do you cut the things even smaller to get more topics addressed in your list? I think in the earliest stages of my own soul’s recovery, I would have used that as a way of organizing my life, right? Like, what has the first priority? What has the second priority? Each of these get a little bit of the pie. I started to realize, as I was in my own recovery process, that the way I started thinking about staying connected to God. Now, let’s keep that as the high-level what we mean by caring for the soul. It’s like, what am I intentionally doing to keep connected to God’s presence? He doesn’t go anywhere, but our awareness fluctuates, and so, as a result, our experience of God fluctuates tremendously. So, how do I intentionally keep that relationship with God present? Present, real-time, not just truths about God. Anyway, those years ago, I started thinking, I don’t think this is another piece of the pie. I think this is the pie plate. I think this is what’s holding everything together. You don’t divvy up the thing that holds, and it doesn’t even factor into what percentages go where. It’s a way of thinking a little bit differently, maybe, about the thing you’re trying to prioritize. So when I would be with leaders as we are right now, those who are listening, to reframe this if you can, or at least ask God to help reframe it. Because the invitation into a way of life that actually orders and makes sense of the rest of the things is such a gift, it is such a gift. It is so not a strenuous ‘How do you white-knuckle your way into a 4 am prayer time that doesn’t work at all for your life?’ I mean, if it does, by all means, do that. But if it doesn’t, let’s not make that be what equals caring for your soul. How does the intentionality of staying alive to God, that’s one of our fun ways of saying this, how do you stay alive to God in the midst of whatever else you’re doing, but as a first-order priority? It doesn’t have to take any of your time, and in a way, it takes all of your time. It becomes the thing that’s holding everything together. So yeah, to reframe that as an invitation might activate wonder, curiosity, or at least a conversation with God, like, hey, how am I supposed to do this? This doesn’t feel real. Then, at least, you’re talking with God about it.

Jason Daye
Yeah, exactly, and oftentimes, that’s the key. The key is to begin raising some awareness in our own lives. I think one of the crazy things that we all experience as ministry leaders is the fact that we’re really good at helping others think through this or process this. This should be something that’s a priority in your life, but we somehow think that as we’re discipling others, as we’re talking to others about these things, as we’re doing other God stuff, Jesus stuff, or ministry stuff, that it is kind of enough to keep us because we’re like, oh, yeah, sure, this whole presence thing, yeah, I’m spending time in Scripture working on a message, or I’m spending time speaking at an event and doing small groups with these people, and helping them sharpen themselves spiritually. Like we feel, oftentimes, like we’re in it.

Mindy Caliguire
Yeah, we’re overwhelmed by that. It’s all-consuming. Yes.

Jason Daye
Exactly. Yet, so often, so many of the pastors and mystery leaders that I talk to, that our team at Pastor Serve talks to, or that your team talks to you, there is this emptiness and this void, even though there’s a lot of activity.

Mindy Caliguire
Well, it’s one of those things that’s hard to say out loud. That, oh my gosh, I can be planning and delivering a really moving message that is gonna open my people’s, your churches, your congregate people’s hearts to God in a revolutionary new way. It’s going to transform your community or whatever. It’s possible for you to go through that whole planning, deliveries, pastoral care to people after the fact, and never actually your own soul in the quietness of your spirit, be like, oh God, you’re with me right now. What are you saying? What are you saying to me now? It’s so possible to operate just out of our heads and out of the stuff that needs to be done. I love what you guys are framing this whole frontstage backstage thing with. It’s like all of that frontstage stuff is great, and we’re made for it. There’s nothing wrong with it, unless we start to lose touch with who we are, God’s presence with us, and we just start performing. You can do a lot of “good” in the world from that place of performance, and then the fruit of that just keeps you going, and people keep applauding, and there’s more and more, but you’re dying inside. That’s the hard thing to say. It’s like, how can it be that we as committed, faithful messengers of a message of invitation to life, can, on the inside, be dying while we’re trying to help others live? That, again, is like this dirty little secret in Christian ministry that we have to become willing to address and talk about in order for it to change, and for you to say, actually, I’m really struggling right now. I can’t remember the last time I actually talked to God when I wasn’t praying for someone else, at the end of a sermon, or something. Those are hard things to say. They’re hard things to admit. I can’t remember the last time I read a Bible verse in any way thinking God might speak to me through it because I’m so busy trying to figure out what he’s saying to everybody else. Again, there’s some nobility and grace in having that heart of service, but we have to start being willing to say those kinds of things if we’re ever gonna get to a different future reality. I do believe, Jason, I do believe things are starting to change. I really believe there are new conversations coming. I believe there are new commitments from leaders to stop the dying, to stop the craziness, to stop, in your context, living only on the frontstage. That narrative through you guys and many other organizations is, I do believe it’s not changed, but it’s changing. I think the courageous, brave people who are saying, You know what, this is kind of dumb, and maybe there’s a different way, are finding that it’s activating that invitation. It’s activating curiosity. Like, how else could I do this? How else might this work? How on earth did God expect me to do all these things I feel called to? But that ends up not being a rhetorical, angst-ridden question. It’s actually a question. Like that how, and where are you in this? What have I missed you in that this feels so impossible right now, and what’s the path forward?

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, and we believe that wholeheartedly as well. We see this and it’s in the work that we do. It’s encouraging, but it’s one of those things that, as encouraging as it is, also reminds you how big, as you said, that fear almost, of being honest with someone else about this and saying, Hey, I’m struggling. Like, that’s a challenge because a lot of ministry leaders feel like who do they go to to raise their hand and say, I’m struggling, within their church network, or within their denomination? That can be a dangerous thing. No one wants to go there because there’s so much concern around that, fear around that, or uncertainty around that. It’s hard to just say it, right?

Mindy Caliguire
It’s hard to say it just to yourself because we have all these rules in our head that are like, Well, if God is real, then I can’t possibly be without him. It’s like, you can’t almost let those ideas or realities surface. But once you actually get to the point where you can, then the next problem is even almost harder because, as you just said, Where is a safe place? Like no, most people in your congregation can’t hold space for that with you. Most ministry peers even, although I do believe this is changing, but many ministry peers don’t always have the ability to hold that space with you. Certainly, the complexities of a denominational structure, etc, where there are accountabilities and all that. Not that we begrudge being accountable. But again, you want to be accountable on this kind of a thing to somebody who has a pretty high “get it” factor, and there’s not a ton of “get it” in our whole ecosystem yet, where we can say, I am a committed worship leader who is showing up week in and week out, and I’m starting to wonder if I’m experiencing the songs that I’m singing. That creates this dissonance that is very, very difficult. Now, it’s not a death sentence. It’s not like you’re not qualified for ministry. You just need a place to metabolize those kinds of thoughts and questions. Let what’s banging around in your head come out of your mouth in a safe place. That’s why the work you guys are doing with Pastor Serve is so vital. So vital because you’re creating those safe places where people can explore what’s really going on, but not let that be an end to itself. How are we receiving this invitation to this life with God precisely in the midst of our hard and possibly unchanging circumstances, and then finding a way of life in the middle of it? That, I do believe, is changing, and I believe Lord willing, wouldn’t it be great if you could imagine a day, Jason, five years from now, not 20, where there are new norms that have been there for personal flourishing? Not for the American Dream version of Christianity or all the relief from any suffering. It’s like, yes, this intimacy with God actually helps us hold the space for suffering. But the kind that God is actually, I’m not going to say causing, but allowing to surface in our lives and circumstances, not things that we’re making unnecessarily hard because of the way we’re doing things.

Jason Daye
Yeah. That’s excellent. That’s our hope and belief. Ministries like yours, Soul care, stepping into these spaces, making things available, and making communities available to ministry leaders is so vital in this whole thing. It’s interesting. You just mentioned there’s as you were winding down, this idea and this reality that some ministry leaders are experiencing of what, in your book, you often term desolation, right? This idea of desolation. I know that comes from your personal story, your personal experience. As I’m reading through your books, oftentimes, the imagery people use for events like this tend to be storms, the storms of our lives. For you, it’s the fire because that’s personal to your story. But one of the things in the book, as I read through the book, and I’m going to read this because I highlighted a lot, everybody, just so you know. There’s this one bit here, which I’d love for us to to talk about. You say, “It’s easier after the desolation to recognize the spaces in your life that need to be renovated. If we can survive the fires of our lives and even learn to embrace the desolation, we’ll begin to see more clearly the potential, the possibilities, the places where we can make changes.” As I was reading that and processing through this, I was thinking that that’s really a huge statement when it comes down to it because it hearkens back to the beautiful, one of my most favorite, qualities of God is that he’s a God who redeems, right? So there’s this idea of redemption that in the aftermath of whatever the burnout looks like in your life, in the aftermath of whatever that pain is, that sorrow, coming to the recognizing, actually, that you can’t keep all this stuff going, right? Like you’re burning your soul out. When all that happens, it gives you an opportunity to look at everything with a new perspective. Now that is a beautiful and easy thing to embrace after you’ve already done that. It’s a challenge when you feel you’re in the middle of the fire. The fires are burning, the storms are raging, the burnout is looming, and all of that. That somehow through all of this, we will have the opportunity to see the spaces in our life that really need renovating. We’ll see the possibilities. So talk with us a little bit, Mindy, about this idea of the hope in the midst of all of this because I think for a lot of ministry leaders that I talk to, it’s almost like, I can’t let any of the spinning plates fall. I just can’t. They don’t see the possibilities, the potentials, or the hope when it comes to Okay, agreeing, recognizing, and being honest with ourselves that they can’t sustain this. This is not sustainable, right? They just would say, I need to keep sustaining it.

Mindy Caliguire
Yeah, that’s an intense amount of pressure when you feel like you’re given impossible demands from God. Now we wouldn’t usually say that, but that’s what’s behind somebody saying there’s not one of these plates that I can set down. That’s what a friend had mirrored back to me. The story of the book weaves together the wildfires that happened here in Boulder, which was a very vivid and jarring experience. It was very disorienting and caused a lot of damage, but the story is weaving together with my own story of pretty severe burnout from ministry stuff many years ago, like, literally, in my late 20s. I would have been one of those people that was like, I can’t drop this. This is needed. This is needed. This is needed. That’s what just keeps you going. If anyone in your inner circle suggests, or your own guilt and shame suggests, that, well, if you really love God, you’d just keep doing more. We’ve lost a break. You’re a runaway train, and there is no break. There’s no basis for slowing or stopping. A friend of mine said, it sounds like because I said, I got to do this, and I gotta do this. I was kind of on a walk, actually, letting out of my mouth what was usually banging around in my head, which I don’t often do. She said, Wow, it sounds like you serve a God of impossible demands. I was like, okay, that doesn’t sound right.

Jason Daye
I didn’t read that in the Bible. Yeah.

Mindy Caliguire
I’m no massive theologian, but I’m pretty sure that’s not the whole point here. I remember similarly, John Wartburg talking about when I was working with him many years ago, how the way we were going about ministry was something that never would have entered the minds of the New Testament writers. Would never have been on their radar as a way of doing life or working for the advancement of the kingdom. So, I remember thinking that day, Wow, that must mean I’m listening to something other than God’s voice, and I’m blaming God. I’m saying it’s God. So for those who are listening, who are like, yeah, that’s me. I can’t set down any of these plates. This person gets disappointed. The money stops coming. I’m not suggesting these are trivial things. If there were trivial things that you could easily set down, you certainly would have by now. You’re not an idiot. You are an intelligent leader, gifted, called, commissioned, and employed. There are a lot of very noble things and very real pressures. If it had been like, oh, I guess I could not join the gardening club this year. Obviously, that’s not what you’re talking about. Yet, I would say it may be necessary for you to sit down with yourself initially, maybe with somebody from the team at Pastor Serve or Soul Care. There are tons of other great resources out there. A non-judgmental page of a journal, a blank page, even without lines, if you can find one and just start writing down what feels impossible. Give voice to it. Let your heart, your soul, and your mind admit to what feels impossible right now. My prediction is that it will not send you into a tailspin of despair and gloom. Although I do know some people for whom journaling actually doesn’t serve them well because they weren’t able to kind of get out of a doom loop on it. So I have somebody at hand ready to talk to about what feels impossible, but at least look at it. Look at it on paper, and be like, is this really what God is requiring of me? Is this really what is expected of me as a beloved child of the living God? You might, of your own heart start to go, Hmm, I might be able to sift through this a little differently than I have in the past. Maybe I shouldn’t be saluting so smartly to every single person that tells me they need a thing, and find gracious ways to hold that boundary, but hold it. But you may really benefit from, I would argue you must, in the end, have some other human being who you can share what feels impossible with. Not that they’re you’re going to want them to come in and rescue it and figure it out. That’s not their job. They might have a good word to offer, but part of the healing is just saying, This is what’s true. This is who I am right now, I need to be known in this, and you do. You just need to be known in it, received, loved, and held space with. So that’s going to feel like desolation. That’s going to feel like, Oh, I’m finally admitting to everything that’s burning out of control, and I cannot stop it. I can’t control this. I don’t know what to do about it. That’s going to feel… and the desolation, of course, is an ancient term, right? The Ignatian way of prayer, of where are there times in our lives where we’ve lost a sense of nearness to God. Those would be times of desolation and the opposite is a time of consolation. You know, Jason, you were encouraged reading that, seeing my observation over time, that after the burn, or after the burnout, there is a fresh opportunity to see differently the landscape of one’s life, either metaphorically or physically. My only word would be that we can’t jump to that too quickly. There is a grief that I have found is an essential phase. Whenever we’re feeling the trouble, feeling the pain, we’re like, we’re good American evangelicals, we’re like, get me to the other side. Get me out of this pain. Like, come on, God, this is your part. God is certainly able, and I would argue, quite willing, to bring us to the other side of that kind of a thing, but not too quickly. I mean, everyone’s going to turn off the podcast now. They don’t want to listen anymore. Sorry, your ratings just went down. But friends, I want to encourage you that there is life on the other side of death. If there’s anyone in our world who can hold out hope for that reality, it has to be the people of Jesus. We are people who know that death is not the final thing, and whatever the hard thing you’re going through right now, you have my great sympathy, possibly empathy, if it’s something similar to what I’ve been through in the past, or whichever of those two words that would be. I don’t make light of that at all. These are really hard conversations to have with yourself and anyone else, and with God. But if it’s hard my challenge to you would be to embrace it. Let it be how hard it is. Don’t pretend it’s not. Write it out if that helps. Make sure you find a safe person to be with in this and know that your experience is not unique. I do believe God is bringing a new wave, but I don’t think we get there by just making a massive leap. If that works for you, by all means, please write the next book. But in my experience, it’s part of the invitation from God to sit in the painful place. Sit in the stuff that is burned and is never coming back. Sit in the perhaps failure. Perhaps a moral failure or perhaps a financial mess that you’ve landed yourself in through circumstance, maybe your own decisions, maybe decisions completely outside your control. But those are painful messes to be in. They could be physical, emotional, or relational. A marriage that’s falling apart, kids that don’t want to be with you anymore, or a congregation that has turned their backs. I mean, these are very hard things that I wish I could say were rare occurrences. I hear about them all the time, Jason, I’m sure you hear about them all the time, and they are not the end of the story. They can’t be ignored, they shouldn’t be ignored, but they are not the end of the story. I do believe some people have commented. A friend of mine, Steve Carter, I don’t know if you know him. He saw that the subtitle of the book is “When Exhaustion, Isolation and Burnout Light a Path to Flourishing”. He said, Mindy, when I saw your subtitle, I thought it was going to say, when exhaustion, isolation, and burnout, get the best of you,

Jason Daye
Right.

Mindy Caliguire
Guys, what I want to say is that the exhaustion you feel, that isolation that you’ve been under, or maybe have chosen. Maybe you didn’t have any safe places. We get it. That burnout, again, physical or metaphorical, can light a path to a flourishing life with God. Reconnection with your sense of calling. Reconnection. The details of your life might shake out very differently than what you thought, but that’s okay. What’s important is you staying alive and alive to God. There are ways to do that, again, that don’t have to take a ton of your time, but they do require your focus and the choice. You know, I often say, I feel like I talked about this last time I was with you. I don’t remember if this is true. There are times when I would spend a day with leaders, like a workshop format, where we would go through a couple of different sessions, and there would be tears and there would be acknowledgment that my soul is not well. Here are some practices that I could fit into my life as the pie plate, not as a how do I squeeze one more thing in. Jason, for as many times as I would do that, I could tell people would go away sad, and this is part of what I believe is changing. But I kept thinking of Jesus telling the rich young ruler, hey, here’s all you have to do. You just have to give away everything you have and come follow me. And I’ve had small group friends say, well, we don’t know that he didn’t do that. I was like, well, you’re kind of right. The text doesn’t exactly say that, but the classic interpretation of that passage assumes that he went away and wouldn’t do it. I feel that way sometimes when I talk to leaders about like, Hey guys, there’s this whole invitation to life. There is a way of doing your calling in your circumstances, you just have to reorient everything around your sense of connection to God in real-time. They sometimes go away sad, and I feel sad about that because the Kingdom, as Jesus said, is like a pearl of great price. It’s a treasure that’s hidden in the field. Guys, it is worth selling everything you have to go buy that field. You would say to me, well, Mindy, I already did that. I became a Christian. Now I’m following God. If you’re in impossible circumstances and you can’t sense your own connection with God, you’re losing touch with even who you are, how you’re wired, or you can’t remember the last time you were still inside where you felt at rest. These are the kinds of things you’ve got to be paying attention to. It might feel like a radical upheaval, but I promise you, it doesn’t have to be. But it is a radical reorientation that becomes your focus, caring for your soul.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, man. I love that because, as you said, it doesn’t have to be, it’s like renovating a house versus demolishing a house and rebuilding it type of thing, you know what I mean? It’s like if we can wrap our minds and hearts around that, we don’t have to renovate the entire house in a day either, right? It’s like leaning into that and letting that be a part of who we are, right?

Mindy Caliguire
Yeah, and I think that’s a really good point because sometimes I say things in a way that could maybe sound a little overwhelming and extreme. It doesn’t have to start that way. We start with just noticing, guys. We just start paying attention. How is my soul actually doing today? I can sing It Is Well With My Soul on a Sunday morning, and I know that, yes, positionally, I am saved. My soul is fundamentally well in connection with God. But maybe I could start being a little honest with what might not be so good today and paying attention to that is, I think, one of the first practices that we talk about in the book. It’s like we’ve got to learn to pay attention and value, honestly, guys, value your own soul. I spent so many years at Willow Creek and that whole mantra that lost souls matter to God, right? That was a big idea and, friends, I want to tell you that your soul matters to God. They both exist. They both exist. They don’t compete with each other. They are both in the generosity and abundance of God. They both exist and matter, but you can’t care for other people’s souls when your own soul is dying inside. That is a way of service that has become a norm for us in modern times and was never the heart of God. Never the imagination of the New Testament writers. They would never have conceived of a way that following God meant an ever-diminishing interior life with God. That was not the cost we were supposed to count.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s so good. So well said. Mindy, you shared a lot of great, yeah, you thought I was gonna stop at “a lot”? No, you shared a lot of great, great insights, and encouragements. As we’re winding down this conversation, I wanted to just give you opportunity. You have the eyes and ears of pastors and ministry leaders who’ve been talking to him this whole time. But, some maybe final words of encouragement?

Mindy Caliguire
Well, gosh, friends, if you’ve listened this far, my invitation to you would just be to notice your ability to talk to God as you’re listening to the rest of this, and begin just a conversation with God. It may just be a, oh yeah, I remember you’re still here. It could be a, I am so far at the end of my rope. I have no idea where else to go. But just start that conversation and see where it takes you. See where the invitation is to just be quiet, and let the noise floor drop for a minute. You can turn this off if it helps, but just… that’s how you got into ministry in the first place was this kind of openness, awareness, listening, stillness, and it’s not far off. It’s still right there. So I would just encourage you to begin that conversation with yourself, with God, and then find a safe place. We talk about this practice of paying attention in the book and a simple like Guys, this could be a simple thing. You could leave this with this. What’s a way to think about how to care for your soul? Practically speaking, what does that look like? Think about these three things. You need a page, a person, and a plan. We’ve already kind of talked about all of them to some extent. But a page is that invitation to a reflection. What is really going on inside? Guys, it matters what’s going on in your heart and your mind actually matters. It’s not only the people around you that matter or the lost people in your community that matter. They do. It’s just not only that. What matters to God is you. So write that stuff down. Or whatever mechanism works for you to reflect and call to the surface what’s really going on. Then, and this may be scary, but find that person. So it’s a page, a person… You’ve got to find that person. Reach out to Pastor Serve. Reach out to Soul Care. Reach out to a ministry peer or somebody that you think is safe enough to hear your heart, who is for you, and who cares about you. If you gotta pay for that person the first few rounds, that’s okay. That’s coaches, therapists, or directors. There are all kinds of ways that you can find a safe and trustworthy person who knows how to hold space for you. But you need that. We all need that. So a page, a person, and then a plan. It’s like you’re gonna have a plan for your life. You’re gonna have a financial plan. You’re gonna have a ministry plan. What are you doing for 2025? I bet you’ve already got a plan. What is your plan to take care of your soul? What is your plan to create space, to breathe, rest, connect with God, whatever are the things? There are tons of ideas on that, but none of them matter more than you sitting down and prayerfully, with God, and maybe with that person saying, in the next 90 days how can I build some intentionality into my life around the well-being of my soul? Friends, I promise you that that will bear much fruit.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s excellent. Mindy, thank you so much. It’s been an awesome conversation, as always. Insightful. Not just insightful, it’s provocative. It makes us pause and think and I always appreciate that about you, Mindy. Thank you for inviting us into a deeper reflection on things. It’s not just a bunch of information and that’s what your book, Ignite Your Soul, does as well. It’s not just an informational book, it’s an invitation for reflection and I love that. For those of you watching along, you can go to PastorServe.org/network to find links to Mindy‘s new book and also links to Soul Care, the ministry that she leads, co-founded with her husband and leads. Doing great work in the space. So there will be links there to connect you with all those things in the toolkit for this particular episode. Don’t forget, in that toolkit, we also have a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, which takes this conversation that we just had, pulls out important insights, and then we create questions to reflect upon, and it was a great episode for you to do that. So I encourage you to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. Mindy, as always, it is a pleasure and blessing to have you on the show. Thank you for making time in your schedule to be with us again today.

Mindy Caliguire
Delighted to, Jason. Thanks for the invitation and thanks for the great work you’re doing at Pastor Serve. Keep it up.

Jason Daye
Thank you so much. God bless you.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.