AntiBurnout: Opportunities in the Obstacles : Alan Briggs

Full-Text Transcript

How might your life and leadership be different if you’re able to more clearly discern opportunities within the obstacles that you’re facing and feeling?

Jason Daye
In this episode, I’m joined by Alan Briggs. Alan is the founder of Stay Forth Coaching, where he serves business leaders, ministry leaders, nonprofits, and businesses. Alan speaks and writes extensively on leadership, well-being, and healthy cultures, and his most recent book is entitled AntiBurnout. Together, Alan and I look at the intersection of the spiritual and the practical and how this can be a blessing to you, your family, your ministry, and your community. Alan provides some incredible insights into how God is inviting us into opportunities as we navigate feelings of being overwhelmed, stuck, and exhausted. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each and every week, I have the blessing, privilege, and honor to sit down with a trusted ministry leader, and we dive into a conversation all in an effort to help you and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy, sustainable rhythms so that you can thrive in both your life and leadership. We are proud to be a part of Pastor Serve and the Pastor Serve Network. Not only do we dive into a conversation each week, but our team also creates an entire toolkit for you and the team at your local church or your ministry to dig more deeply into the conversation at hand. You can find that toolkit at PastorServe.org/network for this and every episode. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. The growth guide includes insights that are pulled out of this conversation and questions for you and your team to reflect upon and to discuss together. So be sure to check out that resource. Again, you can find that at PastorServe.org/network. Now, at Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders, and if you’d like to learn more about how you could receive a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please check out that information at PastorServe.org/freesession. Now, if you’re joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and take a moment to drop your name and the name of your church in the comments below. We love getting to know our audience better, and we will be praying for you and for your ministry. Also, if any questions pop up during this conversation, please be sure to drop them down there, and we’ll get back to you as well. Now, whether you’re joining us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please take a moment to subscribe and to follow. We do not want you to miss out on any of these great conversations, and we have a wonderful conversation for you today. At this time, I’d like to welcome Alan Briggs to the show. Alan, welcome, brother.

Alan Briggs
Jason, thanks for having me. Big fan of you and Jimmy and PastorServe and everything that you guys do. So honored to be here, man.

Jason Daye
Thanks, brother. I appreciate you making the time in your schedule to hang out with us. Now, Alan, what you do day in and day out in your life, your ministry, and your vocation is really walking alongside leaders. You do that both for ministry leaders and corporate leaders. You are just a guide to help serve them and help them overcome challenges that they might bump up against and to really lean into how God has shaped them and what God has called them into. In your work, you’ve had the opportunity to talk with a number of different people from many different backgrounds and many different experiences, but there seem to be some commonalities, and we’re going to dive into one big one, Alan, you’re going to help us work through. You write about this in your newest book, AntiBurnout, but the idea is that we, as leaders, can wrestle with obstacles. Part of leadership is bumping into obstacles. That is just part of what it is, even if we weren’t aware of it when we jumped into it. This is what we’re facing. Obstacles and how to navigate those obstacles. So, Alan, I love the way that you kind of frame and help us think through what our lives can look like as we bump into these obstacles. So, I want to just open it up for you to dive right into how you help leaders navigate obstacles in their lives and leadership.

Alan Briggs
Yeah, the first piece is kind of the intersection of where I get to sit and where I think a ministry leader needs to sit. It’s at this intersection of the spiritual and the practical. Many times we think, whether it was seminary, a ministry degree, an apprenticeship early on in ministry, or planting a church. We think there are things that are deeply spiritual, like preaching God’s word, how to prepare our own hearts and even things like Sabbath and practices. Incredible things. Yet over here, we don’t learn certain things, like how to schedule for our priorities in our weeks. Now, what’s interesting is a lot of these things around time, energy, goals, and leading meetings, the business space has done really, really well, and yet they can’t bring the spiritual in there. So much of my kind of life quest was, can we live at the intersection of the spiritual and the practical? Like Jesus was a brilliant leader in addition to the Son of God. So to be able to learn so many of those things and go, man, it’s incredible how my life works well when I Sabbath. It’s incredible how my life works well when I say no to things that are out of my zone. So first of all, I think just to say that’s where we’re at. We don’t live in a perfect world. The challenges are huge. I was a pastor for 13 years, and actually, I’m starting to preach again and be on a teaching team, kind of a hybrid staff member. Again, I love, love, love the church. So, I don’t speak from the outside. I speak from the inside to say, man, it’s beautiful when we bring those two together. I think the same thing with obstacles and opportunities. Maybe that obstacle is actually the gateway to the opportunity. Just to use one example, overwhelm is rampant, and I call it pre-burnout. So if you have a capital O case of overwhelm, like many of us have had that plagues you for more than a couple of months, and you’re thinking it’s all so overwhelming, you’re going to quit on something. Whether it’s your character, your integrity, or your friendships, and just land in isolation. Quit on pursuing your wife or your husband if you’re married. Forget pursuing the Lord, just sort of waiting for, okay, I have a sermon coming and feed the beast. So, that overwhelm is a bad place to be. What the opportunity is on the other side of that is the privilege I get to do as a coach. You guys have a lot of great coaching. I love coaching because it pulls out the clarity. It doesn’t like dump more content on you. If you’re overwhelmed, you need more clarity. So, to say, what are the top one or two things I need to be doing right now, and then how do I say no to everything else? So, what I say is that clarity always needs to lead to courage. Right? When God illuminates something or gives us awareness, it needs to lead to action. That sounds a lot like obedience. It sounds a lot like what I hope the last line of a lot of our sermons are of now, what are you going to do about it? Go and do likewise. What’s your next right step? So many of those things, I just feel like the business space has gotten all the love over here in so many of these kinds of practical conversations. What if the two were connected? What if that obstacle you’re hitting, which is a massive challenge in your church right now, is actually God refining, rebirthing, and sort of restarting a ministry or your own leadership, kind of in the hero’s journey, right? That space of decent. That would be probably the biggest obstacle I see with just pastors across the country right now is a general numbing sense of overwhelm.

Jason Daye
Yeah, no, I would agree. I think for our team, that’s what we’re experiencing as well. That it’s just a sense of, as you said, just everything’s being dumped on them at once, not knowing exactly where do we turn in those moments? So the key to overwhelm, and the opportunity within overwhelm, as you said, is that sense of clarity. Finding that sense of clarity, being able to slow down, pull back, ask clarifying questions, and really determine, Okay, what are the next steps? What is really going on? Because a lot of overwhelm, Alan, I know that you’ve experienced this yourself, probably, and with those you’ve worked with, a lot of overwhelm comes from feelings as well, right? So sometimes our feelings, because we feel like, man, we have so many things going on, then this came out of nowhere, and this and that, and pressure. So it’s this feeling that’s happening, and whenever you can get clarity on what is real right now and what it might just be feelings, it helps us progress, right?

Alan Briggs
That’s a good point, Jason, because sometimes what we’re feeling as overwhelmed is actually that we’re tired. It’s the end of the week, Sabbath is coming, and what we actually need is rest. So, a lot of times, a leader can feel stuck in that sense of overwhelm, and here’s the beautiful thing, you’re never stuck, but you feel stuck. You’re not actually stuck. You think, oh, the church, oh no, we’re stuck in this. Sometimes it’s a good problem where, like, man, we’re brimming with people, we’ve already added another service, and then we say, You’re not stuck. What would have to be true? How do we think differently outside of that, right? We are co-designing things with God as innovators and inventors of a creative God. So, a lot of times, it’s a reframing. Sometimes, a team is really helpful in that maybe you don’t have the gifting inside of yourself, and maybe you’re overwhelmed because you’re trying to think through the next solution yourself. Notice the word is clarity, not certainty. We’re not certain of what the future is going to be. We don’t know what’s going to unfold. I didn’t see COVID coming. I don’t think you did either. Just a massive, massive shift. Another one right now, a huge one, is change. Capital C change. Cultural change over the last decade, especially social media, is just getting to the spot where we’re banning things like TikTok and seeing our kids’ mental health change. People leaving churches for various reasons. People coming back to churches for various reasons and political things. You name it. The change has been immense, more than we realize we’ve been through. But on the other side, you don’t need to figure it all out. We need to run small experiments. That’s the opportunity is experimentation of what if we’re supposed to get back around tables again? What if our staff needs to get out of the office and get a day alone with God? What if, instead of bringing more content, we need to actually bring more prayer and more fasting here at the beginning of the year? What if, instead of pressure to grow, we actually need to disciple our top 10% of people who we think are hungry? Those kinds of questions are the kind of conversations I’m having with leaders. So I’m super encouraged on one hand because the hungry are really hungry, and we’re seeing incredible things happen. I just did an interview with my friend Zach Meerkreebs, who was part of the whole Asbury revival, seeing Gen Z do unbelievable things and seeing just this humility happening. Then there’s plenty of discouraging the way Christians are acting. I know that grieves so many pastors, people being overly political, and people throwing rocks and grenades on Facebook. So we have to hold that tension that there are real obstacles, then there are serious Kingdom opportunities, and Satan loves to steal, kill, destroy, and block our vision from seeing what could be on the other side. What might God be doing in this? Sometimes, we just need to zoom out, get a little bit of rest, and invite God back into the conversation that God’s already shaping.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that and I love the hope within it too because, as you said, there are amazing things happening within the church and God is at work. The creative part. God is a God who’s a creator. So he invites us into that along with him, as we are facing these changes, as we’re facing these different things are happening around us, and we can’t always lean upon what used to work, especially in the rapidly changing culture we live in. I mean, things are moving quickly, and so that can lead to a bit of overwhelm as well, and just seeking clarity in the midst of that. Experimenting through the changes going on around us, which actually harkens back, Alan, to the early church, right? Which is a beautiful thing, I mean, the early church was figuring it out. They experimented and they were experimenting with all kinds of different ways to go about being the people of God. So I think that should be an encouragement to us. Alan, one of the things that you help leaders process through as well is habits and practices that will encourage them and help them really be centered in life, right? One of the ones that you’ve touched upon, which I feel it’s so critical for pastors and ministry leaders, is you talk about this difference between accessibility and availability. I’d love to unpack that a bit because I think that is so key in ministry.

Alan Briggs
Huge one for pastors. Let me go straight to it. Okay, you preach a sermon on a Sunday. You’re exhausted because either that was one service, leadership development ahead of time, and conversation, you’re an introvert, so small talk as a pastor. Or it’s three services, you’re just tanked, and somebody comes up and says, can you talk now? You have a decision to make and you need to pre-make that decision. What I would always say is, you know what? I’m not available right now. However, if you go ahead and write your email down, one of us will reach out to you this week, and half the time they don’t send an email back. I mean, not to be crass, but they’ve been moved in the moment, and yet they may not make their next step. What I found is that I would over-function for that person and then realize I’m actually exhausted. I’m not in a great place to serve them. So I can still be accessible in the next week or two. I can find space to get together with you, or hey, grab me before the service next week, and let’s have a quick conversation, is very different from Yes, I’m available right now. In fact, we’re too available right now because of these little computers in our pockets. You used to be able to get a hold of a pastor by literally calling the church, and then they would either take a message and you’d call them back, you’d be available and you’d have a short conversation, or you would physically go by. Now most pastors have 7, 8, 9, 10 methods where people can get a hold of you through various social media apps, messaging, text, email, you name it. We are way too available right now. Now the other side of that is that we can’t swing the pendulum to being inaccessible. The pastor in the green room. For the pastors that I know that is not the case. Actually the case is we’ve made ourselves way too available and in doing that we actually haven’t been available enough to God, to our family, or to literal silence. Solitude. Think about that next teaching or preaching idea, that next discipleship relationship. So we’ve gotten two inches into the water, barely up to our ankles, instead of the depth that we really want to be teaching, preaching, discipling, and leading our staff from. So those two A’s, I do a lot of work around that. It’s huge. We have to remain accessible, right? But the only way to do that, and do that well for the long haul, is by actually being unavailable in the moment. I am only available to you and the audience right now, Jason. I’m so locked in, and then after this, I’ll be fully available to my coaching client, and then fully available to my family later on today. Everybody else who thinks it’s an emergency can actually get a hold of me later. I think what’s key to this is for every pastor to make an emergency list. What’s an actual emergency versus a perceived emergency? So often, somebody else’s lack of planning is not your emergency, it’s their lack of planning, and let’s let it sit on it. So some of this involves enmeshment versus differentiation, boundaries, and priorities. The reality is, if we don’t have clarity to go back to overwhelm, then everybody else will tell us what the priorities are. If we do have clear priorities straight from God, then we literally are going to block those things off and say, I can’t do everything. I’m limited. I’m only a human being but I can focus on these things. I can’t do everything that I want to do, but I can do the things God has entrusted to me.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s super helpful and that kind of leads me into the next thing that I’d love to talk about, and that’s the obstacle of exhaustion. Because lots of pastors are experiencing this right now. These kind of relate, right? Because we overextend ourselves. We feel like we need to make ourselves fully available. We feel like that’s part of what it means to be a pastor. That’s what means to be a minister. Yet, so many pastors are wrestling and so many ministry leaders are wrestling with exhaustion. Where’s the opportunity? If exhaustion is the obstacle, where’s the opportunity in that?

Alan Briggs
I mean literal replenishment. There are so many “re”s in this book. I mean, God is always doing a new thing. We would say that. We’d probably preach that. But do we believe that God can actually fill me back up to do the thing he’s invited me to do? Many times we don’t practice that. We feel selfish, you know? We say taking that time. I would say it’s actually investing that energy and it connects to the time versus energy piece of that is that I can create more time. I can not sleep. I can skip activities I should be doing. I can never spend time with God. Never pray. There are ways I can create more time that actually will drain my energy really, really quickly. So, replenishment, that could be anything from physically when I go to the gym. I don’t like it, Jason, but I need it. I hate walking in the gym. I love walking out of the gym because it gives me energy back in that amount of time. Sabbath. I just don’t know how somebody can be a spiritual leader long-term and not take God up on one of his greatest gifts he’s ever given us called Sabbath. I would argue, it’s never been needed more than it is right now. Sabbath for our eyes. Sabbath for our minds. Sabbath for our decisions and decision fatigue. So many of these things we actually can’t get. I don’t know that you can live an anti-burnout life, leadership, or ministry without creating those spaces and saying nothing will invade. Whether it’s family fun night with my kids, I do every Thursday night, and I get to just shut the whole world out and just focus on my kids. Date nights. Times away. My wife and I are going to do a getaway here soon and kind of reconnect on goals. Just time by myself. Are you an introvert? Are you an extrovert? Extrovert, Man, schedule in life-giving people. Introvert, do not skip time by yourself. So often it’s me sitting next to my wood stove, just reading, just thinking, and just journaling. That was one of the things during my last sabbatical. I do a lot of sabbatical coaching and one of the last things during my sabbatical I realized is that I just need more space in my calendar that nothing else can go over top of, as important as that other thing might seem. So much as replenishment, and that can look like activities, hobbies, or habits that you do. I have a life-giving lunch every Friday. That’s how I start the weekend. For me, heading into my Saturday Sabbath is just somebody that I get life from that I want to do lunch with. So this lunch, this Friday, is going to be with Sam. Looking forward to it. I’ll spend time with him tomorrow. I can’t wait to hear what God’s doing in his life. How’s he doing? He’s just the guy that kind of sparks me. So there’s plenty of ideas in the book. Just small things that we can do that are replenishing, even if they don’t feel very spiritual.

Jason Daye
That’s so helpful. I think that takes us back to kind of where you started, this idea of that intersection between spiritual and practical. So often we compartmentalize these things, but really, the key is all of life, is life, right? So when we begin to see God at work through all these things, where we can learn, where we can pull these things together, we see that it can really help us as we are navigating, as we said, the challenges that face us week in and week out. What would be some other habits? We talked about some other practices and some other habits. We talked about accessibility versus availability. You share many in the book. Where are some other habits that you have noticed are particularly maybe a little more challenging, or something that ministry leaders in particular need to pay a little more attention to?

Alan Briggs
Yeah, the word or phrase that I keep hearing, I’ll start with a phrase I keep hearing from leaders, especially spiritual leaders, is everyone needs me all the time. First of all, that’s not true. But secondly, it’s also kind of true where somebody says, I need you to make this decision. I need you to do this thing. Can you do that last-minute thinking, pressurizes kind of going up. Then we walk into our house and our kids need our best from us. Our wife or husband needs our best from us. Just so much. We’re heading home, we take care of a few phone calls or video messages and then boom. So that phrase. Secondly, I’m hearing decision fatigue everywhere. Decision fatigue is real. Essentially a leader is paid to think. We’re discerning from God, making decisions, making decisions about what is taught, what is stewarded, what has started, what has stopped, and so many of those things. That weighs on us. Again, the energy flows out of us. I think, like Jesus with the crowds said, Who touched my garment, the energy flowed out of me. Does it sound like post-preaching or post-leading for anybody, or like I am tanked? What happened to me? There’s something that happens when you pour out spiritually that is more exhausting than anything else. I know. I give talks at business groups and then preach. There is just something about leading spiritually, praying with people, healing, whatever that kind of ministry is. So the energy is limited, and yet we have to ask God, give me more. Give me more. Often that’s through things like rest. I’ll say this phrase I heard a while ago, if you work with your mind, Sabbath with your body. So how I applied that is to realize we don’t really create anything tangible as a ministry leader or pastor. Like a friend of mine makes high-end tables, Jason, and he charges 1000s of dollars for these beautiful tables. He can be like, I made that, I can take a picture next to that, I sold that, and then that sits in somebody’s house. But we’re like, I don’t know. I prepared some thoughts, prayed with some people, led some meetings, and answered some emails. What can we tangibly say at the end of the day? It’s incredibly refreshing to go fishing where you’re knee-deep in the water, to physically create something, to hike and move with your body. I took up woodworking and gardening in different seasons. Now welding. Welding I learned to do over sabbatical, and it’s like I can put that welding hood on and go in my garage, and I’m in a different world because I have to pay attention to the welding right in front of my face. So picking up a hobby is incredibly life-giving. I know a pastor who’s an introvert. He plays nine holes of golf by himself almost every Friday morning on Sabbath. It doesn’t kill the bank account, and it’s just awesome for him to think and process. But he moves, he swings, he smells the grass, and he’s out there. So I would say the most life-giving habits, perhaps even the most spiritual habits, usually don’t feel very spiritual at all. So often, we just need time or space, sports, getting together with folks to just laugh, and watch sports games. Football playoffs have been phenomenal and have been so much fun for people to get together because it’s not deep, you can just laugh and have something that at the end of that doesn’t really matter that much whether your team wins, it’s not life or death and that. So those are a couple of things I’m hearing from a ton of leaders. Recrafting our hobbies and our practices, and then we have things to look forward to. By the way, we’re more exciting to people and more engaging to people. They can identify with us more when they don’t think that, Oh, it’s just a pastor. They just pray all the time, read their Bible maybe drink a little coffee, and then that’s it. As opposed to, they’re normal humans. We have normal needs, and there are things that, for whatever reason, light us up.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s helpful. As you’re talking, I was thinking about the word decompress, this way of releasing, right? It’s a very spiritual thing, the rhythms, right? I mean, we see this throughout Scripture, the idea of rhythm. We see when Jesus was engaged with people and when Jesus pulled away. We see when the disciples and the Apostles. Same thing. This idea of experiencing, as we look at people throughout the history of the church, writers of different times, different eras, talking about experiencing the creation of God, and experiencing good times with people. Alan, what do we do if a pastor or ministry leader says, You know what? I feel that all sounds great for you, Alan. Sounds great for you, Jason. I would love to be able to take up welding or whatever. I’d love to be able to go fishing. I just don’t feel I have the time. My responsibilities, it might be my vocational pastor responsibilities. There are ways that we can feel like we have so much on our plates that we literally feel like we can’t do those things. What’s your advice at that point?

Alan Briggs
What is your fear? We have to address the fear because the lie is that everybody needs you all the time, and it’s like, no, they actually need Jesus. The lie is that if you don’t, then they will blank. Well, that sounds to me like it’s rooted in perfectionism, and it’s rooted in “I can’t let somebody else down, or it’ll be a hit to my identity”. We have to start with the fear. What is the lie? I mean, Jesus talks about somebody and said, you want to plunder somebody’s house, go in and tie the man up. Those are the lies that tie us up so that we just watch people plunder our lives because it’s like, no, I could never do that. No, I could never do that. Scarcity mentality. There will never be enough. So we always need more money in the bank. Always have to be doing more. My identity. Who will I be if I’m not a pastor someday? I asked that when I exited pastoring, and it’s like, man, people won’t pay attention to me anymore. People will think whatever. We have to address the lies first. So first of all, we’ve got the fears. Secondly, we need to reframe moving from time to energy because the reality is we just try to create one more thing, one more thing, one more thing, we turn up the ministry treadmill higher, and the only way we can get by the week and just survive is by running harder, running uphill, and going faster, as opposed to saying, hey, maybe God wants you to step off the treadmill and to deal with some things that in space we can’t. A friend of mine says, Without margin, there’s no imagination. So the first thing I would encourage you to do is block off an hour and just ask those hard questions. Then, could you block off three hours? Could you block off a whole day and go and be alone with the Lord? You’re going to have fears because God will tell us some things that are inconvenient, sometimes refreshing, but almost always inconvenient. So first, fear, we have to address that fear and lie. Secondly, it’s just faith. At what point do you just need to take a risk and do it? I remember when I committed to Sabbath fully, I’ll lose this, this, and this. I lost a few things, but I gained way more. This year, to have more space, to prepare more messages, and to preach again in the local church, I need more space. So I am coaching less, and as a business owner, I may bring in less money. I’m okay if our business bottom line is hurt by my decision in that. So at some point, it’s like, here’s the fear. We can identify that. At some point, what is the faith that we need to fill that spot with? I don’t know any other way to hot wire or short-circuit that process.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. That’s so wise. Great words, brother. As we’re closing down our time together, always great to hang out with you, Alan. Some real nuggets there. I want to give you the opportunity, I’ve got the eyes and ears of men and women serving in ministry, and I want to give you the opportunity just to leave some final words, final thoughts, and encouragement with them. What would you want to share with them, Alan?

Alan Briggs
I want to go straight biblical for just a minute as we close. There are these two beautiful examples of Moses and then we see Stephen. So Old Testament and New Testament. We have Jethro, the sage, who says this is not good. This is not good. That phrase of people don’t change until the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. It’s kind of that adage. To look back, to examine and go, is the area I’m moving, bringing me toward freedom or away from it? Jethro, in his sage, father-in-law wisdom, says this is not good. You need to invite other people in. So, friends, we’re not saying you’re not doing it well. You’re not a good pastor. No, we’re saying you’re only human. What if you involve other people who are ready and the gifts are in them latently to step up? We see this beautiful thing in Acts where it’s like, maybe we’re supposed to preach and we’re supposed to physically feed them. Maybe it’s spiritual needs and practical needs. Then we do it a different way. We’re in agreeance with the Spirit. We involve more team and what happens? More people and different people are now obedient to the faith. I just want to say that I just believe the pathway forward, friend, is not for you to do a ton more, but is actually to do less, and for us to trust God more. I don’t know that it ever gets easy, but friends, it is so worth it. You’re only human. You’ve probably taken on some superhuman expectations, and I don’t think that’s from God. He is a good father. He loves you, and he has good gifts for you because you’re his kid, deeply and dearly loved, not because of what you do, but because you’re his kid. Just receive that. That can and will change everything, including some of the details of your ministry.

Jason Daye
Amen, brother, that’s a great word. It’s been such a pleasure having you hanging out with us, Alan. Your newest book, AntiBurnout. I encourage those of you who are watching and listening in to check that out. Links to Alan’s ministry, his business, his coaching, the book, AntiBurnout, and other resources will be available in the toolkit for this episode, and you can find that at PastorServe.org/network. So if you want to learn more about Alan and how he’s serving, or more about AntiBurnout, his most recent book, and learn more about that, this is just scratching the surface of what Alan offers. So if you want to learn more about that, be sure to check out the toolkit at PastorServe.org/network. Brother, it is always a pleasure to be with you. Love and appreciate you and all that you are doing for the Kingdom. It’s beautiful stuff seeing God at work in your life and through your life. So thank you for making the time to hang out with us.

Alan Briggs
Thank you, man, back at you.

Jason Daye
Alright. God bless you, brother.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.