How Your Calling Frees You : Gordon T. Smith

Full-Text Transcript

Why is a deeper understanding of vocation vital for those of us serving in ministry leadership, especially when facing challenges, transitions, and even new stages of life?

Jason Daye
In this episode, I’m joined by Gordon T. Smith. Gordon is the former president of Ambrose University and Seminary and currently serves as a teaching fellow at Regent College. Gordon has written a number of books, including Courage and Calling. Together, Gordon and I explore both the biblical and practical realities of calling for all people and also what is distinctive for those called into ministry leadership. Gordon shares some key thoughts about facing challenges, transitions, and life stages in a healthy way as we serve the kingdom. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to yet another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Every single week I have the privilege of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader and we jump into a conversation around a topic to help you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy and sustainable rhythms so you can thrive in both life and leadership. We are proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. Not only do I have a conversation every week, but our team also creates an entire toolkit that’s available to you at PastorServe.org/network. There you’ll find the toolkit for this episode and every episode. Inside the toolkit are a number of resources including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Now this growth guide is a free resource, a free tool for you to use. You can go through it personally, but we also encourage you to take your ministry leadership at your local church through that growth guide as well. You can find all those resources at PastorServe.org/network. At Pastor Serve, we absolutely love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders. If you’d like to learn more details on how you can receive a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, you can find that information at PastorServe.org/freesession. So be sure to check that out. Now, if you’re joining us on YouTube, give us a thumbs up and just take a moment to drop your name and the name of your church in the comments below. We love getting to know our audience better and we’ll be praying for you and for your ministry. If any questions come up during this conversation, we encourage you to drop those in the comments as well, and we’ll get back to you on those. If you’re joining us on another podcast platform, we encourage you to subscribe and follow as well as subscribing here on YouTube. You do not want to miss out on any of these great conversations. Today, we have a great conversation for you. At this time, I’d like to welcome Gordon T. Smith to the show. Gordon, welcome.

Gordon T. Smith
Great to be with you.

Jason Daye
Yes, good to have you on the show, Gordon. I’m really excited about the topic we’re going to discuss today because it’s multi-layered, especially for those of us who are in ministry. We’re talking about vocation. Talking about calling. I thought maybe to kick off our conversation, Gordon, could you talk to us a little bit about how the words vocation and calling are used. Are they used interchangeably? Let’s get a little definition around those if you could.

Gordon T. Smith
Certainly, there’s no doubt about it that at root, they mean the very same thing, but they get used slightly differently. But as a rule, I go back and forth between them. In fact, I’ve used one in the title and the other in the subtitle and felt very clever in doing that. But in actual fact they, in essence, mean the same thing. But there’s no doubt about it that the language of vocation highlights the sense in which the work that we are called to do is located in the mind of God somehow. So then we are called, or we have a vocation, whatever language you prefer to use, but I’m using them essentially synonymously. But the main point with both is to say that we are not so much self-directed as God-directed in the life work and ministry in which we are engaged.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I absolutely love that Gordon. One of the things I appreciate in Courage and Calling is how you really open up and lay out a biblical understanding of vocation and calling. One of the things that really jumped out to me, and I wanted to touch on that right on the front end, because pastors and ministry leaders, I think this particular point that you make really applies to us. That is, you are writing about Paul’s letters to Timothy, as Paul is writing to Timothy, and you made the statement that Timothy’s calling wasn’t to be a hero or a miracle worker. Really, what God is leading us to, is to remain true to our vocation, to remain true to our calling. I’d love for you, Gordon, because I just thought that framed so well this idea. Could you unpack that a little bit? Because there is a tendency oftentimes in religious leadership, and we’ll get to that in a moment. But, for ministry leaders and for pastors, there’s a tendency to sometimes feel like we’re called to be a superhero in some way. So, help us understand what was Paul trying to share with Timothy that has now come down to us over all these years.

Gordon T. Smith
Oh, my. Well, first of all, I think it is important that we ask the big question, What on earth is God doing? And in that, realize that there’s only one hero in the fulfillment of the mission of God in the world, There’s only one hero. All we are, and I don’t mean that in a minimalistic kind of way, but all we are is participants in the drama of God’s redemptive work. It may be a small role that we have, but that doesn’t diminish us. It still is a significant role, but let’s not overstate our significance. There’s only one hero, and the hero, of course, is God’s very self, who’s bringing about God’s purposes. So God is the Redeemer, and we are participants in God’s kingdom work. So on any given day, today, we ask, What am I called to say? What am I called to do as I participate in something much, much bigger than myself, but I am not the one that makes it happen when all is said and done? I think part of where I get uncomfortable, for example, I’m dealing with it today with an organization that wants to have a strategic plan, and we’re going to make it happen. I want to just say, Well, okay, we need to think strategically, but it’s always an act of response to the question, What on earth is God doing? Then we then say, how at this time and in this place, are we being called to participate? And that will not be the same for you as for me. So I struggle a bit, for example, with what you might speak of as franchising, where we’re all going to go down to some highly successful, we determine, church, find out their methods, come back, and replicate them in our situation. Well, we can learn from one another. We need to ask the other question. At this time and in this place, how are we being called to participate in what God is doing here? It may seem like a lot of what we do is done in obscurity, behind the scenes, and that is fine. Some of the most significant work we do is done quietly, below the radar, and that is fine. So we do not need to be touting what we’re doing. We do not need to be building our CVs. We just need to be doing at this time, in this place, this is the work that I’m called to do. It may not seem very exciting and heroic, but the fact of the matter is if every day you, Jason, and I can have some sense that today, in our speaking, in our acting, we were in sync with what God was doing in the particular circumstances that we were living in. Is there any more gratifying than that? There isn’t. So Philip’s on his way to wherever. I don’t know where he’s going and the spirit prompts him to go up to this Ethiopian and start a conversation, but there’s no way that Philip left Jerusalem thinking, I’m going to look out for Ethiopians on the road. No, he just went where he was called and participated in something much bigger than what he was doing. Sorry, I’m carrying on, but you get my drift.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that Gordon. It’s really freeing whenever we think of our calling in this way because I reflect back on my life when I sensed a very distinct call into full-time vocational Christian ministry and I remember there was excitement with that. But then there was also like, oh my goodness. It’s a huge world. There are lots of broken things, lots of things like, I’ve got to jump in. You start thinking like, well, I’m going to win the world for Jesus. You get into it, then you feel this responsibility, then you feel like, Oh no, I don’t want to mess it up, and all of these things. Yet, the way you talk about this idea of our calling is that we are, as you said, participating, we are listening, and we’re just seeking and asking, God, hey, what’s going on? That gives us some freedom that it’s not all on our shoulders, obviously, but sometimes we tend to act that way, don’t we? We tend to act that way, especially in ministry, as we pull things back to us. So how does this understanding of vocation help free us to really do what God is calling us to do?

Gordon T. Smith
Well, I’ll speak autobiographically as well. There’s no doubt that I grew up within a religious subculture that the more you do on any given day, the more important and significant you are. So we sometimes will even greet one another and say, Now, Gordon, I know you’re very, very busy, but you just have a moment that I could have of your time? Why do they assume I’m busy, busy, busy? Because we define ourselves by how busy we are and we feel significant and important if we are busy. Whereas I would like, I mean, I’m just struck by the magisterial words of Jesus in John 17. I would like, at the end of the day to be able to say I completed the work that I was called to do on this day, and to be freed from thinking that somehow, the more I did, the more significant I am. There will be days, I mean, there’s a line in Thomas Burton, there will be days in which I am scrambling either because of poor planning or because, Jason, you and I live in a fallen, broken world. I made a commitment to talk to you, and then the next thing you know, I got a phone call from my granddaughter saying, Grandpa, I need your help, and things kind of accumulated. But as a rule, there’s a rhythm, and almost I want to say, a leisure to the pattern of our lives. We’re not panicking. There’s not frenetic busyness, but there’s a quiet serenity to being at peace, to say what we are called to say, No more and no less, and do what we are called to do, no more and no less. But there’s no doubt about it, that in my case, and maybe yours too, I have to get over, what I suspect is something I’ve inherited from my father, that how much did I get done, and how many books that I published, and how many speaking engagements that I have? Then he’s impressed and he feels proud of his son. I somehow think that maybe, I presume I’m projecting that upon God, rather than just the freedom to say, I did what I was called to do today, no more and no less. Sometimes we know and we start the day with the to-do list. Sometimes we don’t know and we get a phone call, as I said, from a granddaughter, and suddenly, oh, maybe that’s now the prompt of the spirit to say, Gordon, this is where you’re going to be focusing your attention today. But you know, Jason, I also want to have enough margin in my day that I can respond like the Good Samaritan on the road to Jericho. I want to have enough margin in my day that if my granddaughter calls, I’m not so consumed with accomplishing things that the world wants me to be impressed with that only actually she will ever know about. I want to have enough margin in my day. I actually think that the Lord gives us that kind of margin so that we can respond on the road. On the way to what? To the man who was at the accident at the intersection, and we’re not rushing off because we’ve got so much to do that we can’t pull over and go over and see if we can be of assistance.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. Gordon, just the idea that so much of our ministry happens in those interruptions. Absolutely love that. We look at Jesus’ life and we see that time and time again. When we read through the Gospels so many things that Jesus encountered and Jesus did were those little interruptions, right? Those things that weren’t planned and the freedom. I love, Gordon, that you talk about almost like the leisure and the freedom to know what we’re called to do, who we’re called to be, and not to try to overburden ourselves. Christ says, my yoke is easy. My yoke is light. Do not overburden yourselves. Do not worry. Do not be anxious. So that invitation, so many times in ministry, we fill our schedules so we don’t have margin because, as you said, we think being busy means we are a good minister or good leader. So I think it’s very helpful. I love that freedom. One of the things that I loved in the book, too, that kind of stood out to me is some of the language you used when you’re talking about different vocations. You talked about four different, I think, major categories and one of them was religious leadership. As I was reading through that and thinking through that, one of the things that struck me was this idea of ministry versus religious leadership. Often times we talk about people being in ministry, but the reality that kind of comes through the entire book, Courage and Calling, is that we’re all in ministry. All of us, part of our calling is that we are ministering, whether we are a professional in religious leadership or not. So talk just a little bit about this category of calling, this category of vocation in religious leadership. How do you think about that? How do you define religious leadership? Then I have some kind of sub-questions about vocation in regard to that.

Gordon T. Smith
Well, there’s no doubt that part of what sets this up is that I’m trying to make the case that those called into business are called to do sacred work and participate in what God is doing in the world. That those called into the arts, my wife’s an artist, are participating in what God is doing in the world. I get very excited when I meet somebody who’s a grade 11 science teacher, and I realize that this is his calling and it’s as intimate a calling as mine is. But then I don’t want to, having affirmed the sacredness or the significance of all vocations, I do want to actually come to an appreciation of perhaps, and I get some pushback on this, the unique role of those called into, and then we need a phrase for what I’m going to speak about. I borrowed that word, or that phrase, religious leadership. I’ve borrowed that from the Association of Theological Schools. That’s the language they use. So I thought, Okay, I’ll run with that language. It’s leadership. So it’s a distinctive role within the life of the faith community and it’s more comprehensive than just congregational life. But there’s no doubt about it that I’m a churchman. I believe deeply in the life and witness of the church. By that, I don’t mean so much denominational structures as faith communities. Communities that gather for worship, for teaching and learning, and for shared mission. One of the things I love doing is talking to faith communities. Talking to their leadership about what is the vocation of this particular congregation at this time and in this place. What does it mean to be a Lutheran Church on the corner of Main Street and First Avenue? What does that mean? Who are you there? What is your vocation? But stepping back to say, within that, there are those for whom they play a primary, catalytic role in the flourishing of a congregation. I never want to overstate how important the pastor or the religious leader is, but there’s no avoiding the healthy churches as a rule have effective, capable, engaged religious leaders, pastors, priests, or whatever language you want to use. Religious leadership covers a broader, I mean, I work and spend lots of time with Anglicans who use the language of priests. That’s not my background. In fact, I actually have a little furrowed brow around it. Okay, fine. But I want to be generous. But pastors, clergy, clerical, priests, all of that is kind of the religious leadership umbrella language. But in all of this, Jason, we do need to ask, so what is the particular role and responsibility? I’m even comfortable using the special role responsibility of those called in to provide a catalytic role for the life, work, and witness of a congregation. Because if business leaders, artists, or teachers do what they are called to do, it’s in part because they’re equipped and empowered by the faith community of which they’re a part to do that very work. So I grew up assuming that the in-breaking of the kingdom happens on Sunday morning as all of God’s people gather and give their offerings so that I can do what I’ve been called to do. I want to flip that on its head and say, No, the in-breaking of the kingdom happens Monday morning as God’s people are equipped, they’ve met Christ in real-time in worship, now equipped and empowered by the faith community of which they’re a part. They’re going to be engaged in the kingdom work of God Monday through Friday or Saturday, whatever it happens to be. Or if they’re at home, that’s also a significant vocation or calling, the domestic arts. I want to flip that on its head and just say I am there for them. That’s what I am.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. In the book, whenever you’re talking about this idea of these distinctive areas, categories of calling, where people live and experience life. It’s interesting when you talk about one of the unique things about those who are called into religious leadership, and you alluded to this, but I’d like to go a little deeper, is that it’s a vocation that engages with all the other categories of vocation, right? Because of the equipping of the saints. So, Gordon, first, maybe, let’s pull back a little bit. First, what is common for all when it comes to calling and vocation? Then let’s dive down a little bit deeper into what are some of those distinctives that you just kind of touched on for religious leaders in relation to others’ vocations?

Gordon T. Smith
Whoo. That does get us into a whole other perhaps topic of conversation. That is, I don’t know how controversial it is within your listening constituency, but what is common for all, in some form or another, is that Jesus Christ is the crucified, risen, and ascended Lord, and now we are witnessing to His ascension. Or another way to put it is to his reign. So I resist the idea that we are building the kingdom or we’re establishing the kingdom. I’m not comfortable with that language. But we do, in a very real sense, witness to the kingdom of God, and we are participants in the kingdom. So we need to see the production of goods and services in business as a participation in what God is doing and bringing about the redemption of all things. The artist is witnessing to truth and light in the midst of a fragmented world. That is the language of witnessing in Acts 1 and is appropriate for all three of those. We both witness to it and then we embody it. So there’s something just profoundly liberating and powerful. I got my shoes repaired. I go into this little shop in the city of Victoria, and these two women run a shoe repair shop, and whether they’re Christian believers or not, they happen to be. But whether they’re not is not the point. The point is that this place is beautifully run. They’ve got great music going, blues, and they’re committed to serving me. I’m not there to kind of keep them in business. They’re there to say, we’re going to give you a quality pair of shoes. This vision that they have is life-giving. I don’t want to just say that they’re not Ford Motor Company. They’re just this little shoe repair shop. No, it’s the coolest thing ever, it’s delightful, and it somehow represents the unbreaking of the reign of Christ in my world. So I think the kingdom is a common feature. The other one is related to that, and I alluded to this earlier, is the sense in which I am doing this in response to what I’m convinced God is calling me to do. Can we, as church communities, empower the people in the pew? Do you know what a Pew is? Empower the people in the chairs or the pews. Whatever language you want to use. Empower them to actually hear the voice of Jesus for themselves. That is, not hear what their parents are telling them to do, or even their religious leaders are telling them to do, but they know in their own hearts this is what God is calling me to do. I mean, six months ago, I was university president, and I would say this often. One of the gifts we want to give to these graduating undergrads is the capacity to know the voice of Jesus in their own hearts and in their own minds. Sometimes it needs to be tempered down. I think maybe you’re thinking, be a hero. We still are accountable. In Acts 13, Paul knew he was called to proclaim the gospel to the Gentiles, but he still took it, it seems, to the elders of the church in Antioch. He still needed that confirmation. So I do think that a third kind of common thing between all of us is that we need the endorsement or the affirmation of colleagues, peers, and friends. Or, as the Quakers say, the clearness committee. Because we’re all, well, I shouldn’t project upon you, but we’re all capable of thinking more highly of ourselves than we should, and we need a healthy humility that allows others to speak into our lives. That allows others to say maybe not. I mean, I’ve heard out there that Joe Biden is very upset at Nancy Pelosi because she told him that maybe he shouldn’t run for a second term. I want to say, Mr. Biden, that’s what friends do. They say maybe not. A good friend will say you think this is what God’s calling you to do. But maybe not. So I would say three things. One, the kingdom of God is a common thing, and how we witness to the kingdom of God. Second, a sense that within our own hearts, we know this is what I’m called to do today. Thirdly, that we’re part of a community to whom and with whom we’re accountable for the life, work, and witness to which we are called. I’m doing more and more writing, and I’ve got two people that are on my case. Are you writing? And if I’m not, they’re going to give me grief. And that’s not a problem, that’s a good thing. To be accountable for our work is not a problem. It’s a good thing. I’m thinking off top my head. But those are the three things that come to mind that I would say to everyone in the pew, that the kingdom of God is our primary reference point. You need to know in your own heart what God is calling you to do, and then you need to run it by a group of friends or a dear friend, a confirmation that this is indeed who you are and what you are called, and you’re not living in illusion, or actually underperforming when you could be stretching a little bit.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s good, Gordon. Okay, so that’s helpful. That’s what’s common amongst all. Now, when we look at those who are called to religious leadership, there are some distinctions that you make in Courage and Calling and some relation to these other vocations. You touched on this a little bit. I’d like to lean a little bit more into that, Gordon. How is the role of a pastor or ministry leader, in that calling and vocation, maybe distinctive, somewhat different, or somewhat unique from those other callings?

Gordon T. Smith
Yeah, and you’re exactly right that we need to give definition to this, especially in what is actually a very fluid time. There’s so much change on a global scale, not just within your country and mine, but on a global scale that we need to say, Hold on a sec. What does it mean to be the church? Just last night, the last thing I did before going to bed was comfort. I’m in correspondence in almost real-time with the folks in Hong Kong, they’re in a different time zone, and they want to say, in the midst of all the change that is happening in Hong Kong, can we step back and ask, what does it mean to be the church? I want to say, sure, let’s do that, but then related to that, and then what is the role of those who are called into congregational leadership? How does that role get re-nuanced or redefined? Part of why I like the language of religious leadership is that it can encompass all three. The priestly role of leading God’s people into the throne room, into the presence of Christ. So what you might speak of as liturgical leadership, and there’s no doubt that those on the more liturgical, sacramental, high church end, that’s how they think of their religious leaders. They’re priests and they’re leading us into the presence of the high priest. That is, without doubt, a role for all those and if you’re not doing it yourself well, then you’ve got people on your pastoral team who are doing it. But collectively, we’re leading people into the presence of Christ in shared worship and in our common prayers. Secondly, within the Presbyterian tradition, and to some degree within my own, is the sense of the role of the pastor as teacher. What you might speak of as catechesis, which is the ancient word for religious instruction. But Jesus was a teacher, those called, and Paul’s exhorting Timothy to teach in season and out of season. So preaching and teaching in the ministry of the word, which in my growing up, was simply central and fundamental to what it meant to provide religious leadership. When you go to seminary within my own tradition, that’s what you learn how to do. How to exegete scripture, so that you can teach and preach the scriptures for the life, work, and witness of the church because what sustains the life, work, and witness of the church is the word. So it’s the Spirit and word. But without the word, the Spirit cannot do what the Spirit’s called to do. Then, thirdly, I’ve alluded to this already, I’m convinced that we’re all called to mission, individually and collectively. There’s no doubt that within my heritage, my upbringing, that’s first and foremost what a pastor did was to empower the church to be involved in the mission of God in the world. So could it be all three? Liturgical leadership, catechetical leadership, and missional leadership. Both the priestly function of leading us into the presence of Christ, the catechetical function of teaching and preaching the word of God, and thirdly, the missional function of empowering God’s people, collectively and individually, to be participants in the kingdom purposes of God in the world. Whoa, that’s a lot. A lot rests on this. A lot rests on this. So there’s a sense in which, therefore, you do not go into this lightly. You do not say, well, lucky you people, I’m going to be your pastor. You don’t go into this lightly. You realize that you are carrying a significant weight. Yes, in a larger congregation, there’s more than one person that does it. So I’ve been in both. I’ve been the solo pastor, and I wanted to bring what I’m learning now. I wish I knew this then. There are many lay people who can easily share with me the role and responsibility of congregational leadership. There was this sense in which that’s what I was paid to do, and so I did it, rather than inviting in others to participate. Then I overworked because everything stood on me. So that goes back to the other problem. But it was hugely gratifying to be part of a larger congregation with a larger pastoral staff, and each of us working in sync with one another, attending to all of the ways in which the congregation was called to flourish in worship, in teaching and learning, and in mission. Very gratifying. But not in that chapter of life. Now, although my son is.

Jason Daye
Yeah, no, that’s good Gordon. One of the things I’d like to touch on as well, that you wrote about in Courage and Calling, was this idea that there are stages of life. How does our vocation and our calling relate to stages of life or transitions? I think this is a massive conversation and sometimes a challenge for those who are in a full-time vocational ministry. So I would love for you just to help us, Gordon, kind of process through. How does our calling relate to stages of life or other transitions, and how can we think in a healthy way about those experiences that we have and how it relates to our calling?

Gordon T. Smith
Oh, serious questions. First of all to say, unequivocally, there are stages and phases to an adult life, and it’s not an area of expertise for me, but I do value the people that write about the stages of an adult life and adult developmental psychology. I find the contributions to that conversation invaluable around this whole question of vocation, and I refer to that in the book. But I’m also intrigued right now by two conversations that I’m privileged to be part of. One is the significance of mid-career transitions, and by this I mean not Jonah’s. People who missed their calling and now suddenly are waking up to it. But people who are now in midlife, maybe more like Moses, although he was 80. So it’s not exactly midlife. People who now are seeing that God is calling them in a way that they could not see earlier. So I’m intrigued by that. Then I’ve been doing, students of mine got me into Substack, and I did for six months. I did a Substack posting on what it means to move into your eldership, and that when you’re an elder, you engage the world, the communities, and the circumstances that you’re in in a very different way than when you did when you were in midlife, or when you were in your 20s. This is part of not just grudgingly accepting this, but actually embracing it. So I find it deeply gratifying to be in conversation with people in midlife, who are seeing themselves and understanding themselves more fully than they could have done in their 20s. They just hadn’t lived with themselves long enough, or even in their youth, they were still trying to impress their parents or somebody else, or still had some ideal of who they were going to be. But now, in their 40s and moving into their 50s, there’s this gracious acceptance of who they are, of seeing themselves in truth, of not trying to impress anybody, but just graciously, winsomely, and powerfully accepting. Seeing themselves in truth. They stop comparing themselves to other people. They stop feeling diminished because somebody else has more talent, is better looking, or is a better athlete. I mean this morning reading the comparison between Tom Brady and Mahomes about who’s the best quarterback ever in the NFL. I say, Come on, stop it already. This is not a beauty pageant. We’re just going to enjoy the Super Bowl. You don’t need to know who’s the greatest. But this obsession with comparisons. You come to that point in your life when you stop thinking, I’m the greatest of all time. I don’t need to be the GOAT. I don’t need to be comparing myself. I just need to live within my own skin and that’s one of the huge freedoms that comes in midlife, ideally. When it doesn’t happen, I grieve it, but ideally. Now I’m doing so much of what I have found deeply generative thinking and conversation about what it means to be an elder. So the language I use is, I’m moving into my eldership and I’m processing what all of that means. It means both you’re letting go of certain things, but you’re also embracing this season of life. I think the two go together because I think part of what I’m called to do as an elder is to come alongside people in midlife and mid-career to encourage them to do what I just said. See themselves in truth and stop wishing they were anybody other than who God made when God made them, and then to give them the encouragement, essentially what Paul does to Timothy, the courage to do what they are called to do. If I can do that on a small, small scale, one person at a time, that’s what it means to be an elder and it’s great.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for that. Gordon, I have one final question as we wind this down. As we’re thinking of our calling, one of the challenges can be when we’re in ministry, vocational ministry, and we feel a shift, maybe from, as you said, in your own life, I relate to this as well, as a local church pastor or lead pastor of the local church. But then you feel God maybe shifting your focus into something else, whether it be education or leadership in some other way within the church, within the kingdom, or whatever that looks like. Gordon, help us think through this because I’ve talked to so many pastors who are kind of wrestling with these types of things. Like, am I called to be a local church pastor forever? Or is the Spirit leading and guiding? And sometimes people wrestle with that because, well, I’m called to be a pastor. They might use that language. Well, then later in life, they feel they’re being called out of local church ministry into another type of ministry. How have you helped people process through that? Because I’m sure that you’ve mentored and talked to people who are wrestling with those questions. How can we address that in a way and understand that maybe more fully?

Gordon T. Smith
Well, there’s no doubt, Jason, that in part of religious communities, if you leave the pastoral office, that’s considered a step down or a step out, and that’s problematic. The person immediately feels like a failure. So we’re still in that kind of mindset that I think is problematic. But it is interesting to note that even the Apostle Paul started out as a tent maker, then was a church planter, then was kind of a bishop, overseeing congregations, and then was a fundraiser. His last job was as a fundraiser for Jerusalem, the poor, and ultimately for the ministry to Spain. So even if you look at the Apostle Paul’s life, you can see that things shifted for him. I wonder if part of it was the circumstances that he was in that he realized towards the end, okay, I’m done here. I’ve done what I came to do here. I can let it go. The new frontier is Spain, and that’s going to happen from Rome. So excuse me, guys in Ephesus, I’m here. I need some cash to help with the people in Jerusalem, the poor, and I need some resources in order to do what we were called to do in Spain. It’s been a great run. But I’m moving on. There’s no clinging, in a sense, too. I mean, he left some troubled situations behind. In Corinth, he made the best shot he could to fix it, but ultimately, moved on. I’m just saying there’s a sense in which at some point we say, I’ve completed the work that I came to do. So I can graciously let it go, and then turn and say, so what am I called to do?  I have a friend, Brian. He retired. We use the language of retirement, but he retired what we all think of as really early from pastoral office. A very gifted pastor and preacher because he was called to be an artist. He’s a painter and that had been percolating for many years, and he finally said, If I don’t get going on it now, it’s not going to happen. We were all a little taken aback because I think we all viewed him as one of the finest preachers in the area, I would actually recommend people there, and I wanted my son to do his internship there when he was doing an internship, but he felt called to be an artist. A friend Ray in Toronto, was so impressed by the number of people in his congregation who were dealing with anxiety disorders, and mental health issues, that he said, we need more people who are walking alongside people in trauma and this kind of health care issues. I can preach and teach. I could, but there’s other people that can do it better, but I can do this. So now he just runs, he trained as a pastor, but now he’s a full-time therapist, and I think I can’t argue with him. I was kind of sorry he left the other but it’s not my call. It’s not my call, and I respect his decision, and he had it vetted, like everything I just said earlier, he’s doing what he feels deeply that he’s called to do right now. How can you argue with him, given the level of mental health issues that young people wrestle with today? We need more people in that line of work, so he did it. So am I responding to your question?

Jason Daye
Yeah, this is good. This is good, Gordon.

Gordon T. Smith
So you get my drift, but I think we should not, it’s a great line. With God, there’s no wasted time. So it’s not like God starts from scratch when you’re 46 and are not sure. For me, whenever I experience any level of failure, I think you know what, I missed my calling. I’m out of here. We need to be reminded that sometimes God leads us through a dark valley, that sometimes there’s deep learning that happens in setback and disappointment, and that failure needs to be discerned. Is this of God? Is God telling me that this isn’t my calling, or am I supposed to persevere through it, learn from it, and learn from the failures of the setbacks along the way? And that will come to all of us. You get up, you preach a sermon, and it really went flat. It was really bad. Well, then it’s not my calling. No, you just had a bad sermon. That’s also where we’re not on this road alone. We have companions on the road. I often think that pastors live very solitary lives without genuine camaraderie or companionship. They’re just not hanging out at the pub with two or three good friends. It’s just not there. They don’t think that that’s where they can be. For me, the long walk on the beach with Mark, Nick, or Glenn, these men who are closer to me than brothers. These long walks or the beverage at the pub, whatever it happens to be, are rather crucial. When I say, maybe I’m not called because I failed at something, these are the guys that say, you know, get over it. Move on. Stop being so sensitive to the setbacks. We can’t navigate this alone.

Jason Daye
I love that. I love that idea. I love ending on this idea of the isolation issue that many in religious leadership, vocational ministry, sense. I think that’s huge. We’re not going to hit it out of the park every time. So we’ve got to understand that. We look at the life of Joseph. Joseph lived many, many years, being beaten up, sold into slavery, working as a servant, being falsely accused, being in prison, and all these things before, and he didn’t give up on God. He didn’t give up on the dreams that God put into his heart, right? That’s good. Gordon, as we wind down, I just want to give you an opportunity to share some words of encouragement. You have the ears and eyes of pastors and ministry leaders right now. What would you like to encourage them with as we close?

Gordon T. Smith
I think, so, the language that I’m trying to use there at the end, with respect to the companions on the road, is that the most common exhortation in Scripture is to encourage one another, and to say, you cannot navigate this road alone. Don’t try. Don’t be so pig-headed to think that you don’t need the companionship of friends. By the way, though, you don’t just kind of say, I need a friend, so I’m going to walk down the street and see who’s there. These are cultivated over time. So when I gave reference to three names a few minutes ago, these are men that have tracked with me my entire adult life. These are friendships cultivated over a long period of time and they’re there. When I left my last job, eight men flew into Calgary and spent an afternoon and evening with me to reflect on this chapter of my life and this transition. You cannot try to do this alone. Cultivate these friendships and spend time with them. This is well-invested time and it pays huge dividends down the road. I ate from my father, who, in his senior years was a very lonely, isolated man, and he had so many friends until suddenly he was no longer on the job, and those friends were just merely acquaintances. They were not they were not true soul friends, soul brothers. I think this is a bigger issue for men than it is for women. I don’t know very many women that don’t have those kinds of fellow women on the road with them, but men, oftentimes, for whatever reason, the way we’re socialized, or whatever the reason might be, are often, I think, solitary players. That’s what I would encourage is to cultivate those kinds of friendships along the way.

Jason Daye
Amen, brother. Appreciate that. Gordon, thank you so much for taking the time to spend with us here on FrontStage BackStage. For those of you who are watching and listening along, we’ll have links to Gordon’s book Courage and Calling, ways that you can connect with his ministry, and the other books that he’s published in the toolkit for this episode. You can find that at PastorServe.org/network for this episode and every episode. So be sure to check that out. Gordon, thank you again for being with us. Certainly appreciate it. Appreciate all the wisdom that you shared, a lot for us to absorb, receive, and allow to help shape us as we’re looking at this vocation of what it means for us to serve the kingdom. So thank you.

Gordon T. Smith
You’re welcome. A privilege to be with you and contribute to the conversation. Delighted.

Jason Daye
All right, thank you, brother. God bless you.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.