How to Rekindle Joy in Ministry : Jim Cymbala

How to Rekindle Joy in Ministry - Jim Cymbala - 30 FrontStage BackStage with Jason Daye

Ministry can be challenging, and when it’s tough, how do we rekindle the joy of serving the Kingdom? In this week’s conversation on FrontStage BackStage, host Jason Daye is joined by Jim Cymbala, pastor of the Brooklyn Tabernacle, and author of many best-selling books, including his latest entitled Fan the Flame. Together, Jim and Jason look at some of the detours that can derail our ministries, and we explore exactly where we can turn to experience God’s absolute best for our lives and our ministries.

Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed. Find your Weekly Toolkit below… Love well, Live well, Lead well!

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Additional Resource Links

Fan the Flame: Let Jesus Renew Your Calling and Revive Your Church – Jim’s latest book which addresses what he has seen in so many churches, they experience defeat because so many leaders forget this one truth: Your church is not your church. It’s Christ’s church. In order for his church to flourish, we have to minister his way.

Brooklyn Tabernacle – Jim Cymbala is the lead pastor of this multicultural, non-denominational church in the heart of downtown Brooklyn

Connect with Jim Cymbala – Twitter | Instagram

Connect with PastorServe – LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook 

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Key Insights and Concepts

  • We go to the Bible for matters of doctrine. We must also go to scripture for matters of ministering the gospel. There is much to be learned from how the Early Church did ministry, not just what the Early Church taught.
  • The over-emphasis on numbers and viewing people as “targets” has negatively impacted the ministry of many local churches
  • The Early Church was not focusing on what it needed to do to keep people coming back for more. They focused on proclaiming the gospel and encouraging people to embrace the hope and truth of Jesus.
  • A lot of burnout arises from working hard but seeing little fruit. To help avoid burnout, the focus must shift from more numbers to life-transformation. A return to building Christ’s Church, Christ’s way, for Christ’s glory, will lead to more fruit and less burnout.
  • Many churches are leaning on their own understanding, and trusting in cleverness, rather than the anointing of the Holy Spirit
  • The trap of politics and tying your wagon to either the Republicans or the Democrats is an exercise in futility and derails many pastors and many churches
  • A lot of pastors and ministry leaders, and even lay people, are not interested in building the Church. They’re interested in building their political party up and gaining power, which is tragic for the witness of the Church.
  • Getting entrenched in tradition can derail a church, as well, because pastors tend to reproduce the culture of the church they grew up in or are most familiar with rather than seeking how God desires to develop the church
  • Christ’s Church is for everyone because Jesus died for everyone and offers new life to everyone
  • Genuine prayer is not an option for a local church. It must be cultivated and championed.
  • The way we rekindle our joy in ministry is to get back to focusing on life-transformation through Jesus. The focus must be on people who are broken and hurting experiencing the healing power of Jesus.
  • Pastors and ministry leaders must not get caught up in their egos. The only thing to glory in is Jesus.
  • For every pastor and ministry leader, the best is yet to come. God longs to move in fresh ways in your life and ministry.

Questions for Reflection

  • How has studying how the Early Church did ministry, and not just what they believed, impacted how I do ministry? Do I need to look at the Early Church with fresh eyes?
  • What are some specific ways that the Early Church ministered? What was Paul’s focus? How does that relate to our church?
  • What changes do we need to make to center ourselves on life-transformation through Jesus?
  • Jim mentions four things that can easily derail pastors and churches: latest trends in ministry, politics, tradition, and culture. When I reflect on each of these, what do I see in my ministry? In our local church?
  • Am I, or are we, being derailed? If so, what is derailing us? How will we address it?
  • Am I leaning on my own cleverness for ministry rather than on the anointing of the Holy Spirit? How do I know this? What will I do?
  • Is our church truly for anyone? What walls have we built up that might keep some people away? What will we do about that?
  • What role does prayer play in my ministry? What role does it play in our church? Are there changes we need to make in the area of prayer?
  • Is my ego getting in the way of God’s work in our ministry? What do I need to do in this area?
  • Am I finding joy in ministry? Why or why not? What do I think of Jim’s thoughts on experiencing joy in ministry? How can I rekindle that joy?
  • Do I sincerely believe the best is yet to come in my ministry? Why or why not?

Full-Text Transcript

Ministry can be challenging, and when it’s tough, how do we rekindle the joy of serving the Kingdom?

Jason Daye 
In this episode, I’m joined by Jim Cymbala, pastor of the Brooklyn Tabernacle, and author of many best-selling books, including his latest entitled Fan the Flame. Together, Jim and I look at some of the detours that can derail our ministries, and we explore exactly where we can turn to experience God’s absolute best for our lives and our ministries. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye 
Hello, friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host Jason Daye. And every single week, I have the privilege of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader and we tackle a topic, a topic designed to help pastors just like you, and other ministry leaders just like you, to really embrace a healthy rhythm in life in ministry, both on the front  stage and the backstage of life. And we are proud to be a part of the PastorServe network. Every single week, along with each episode, we create a online toolkit that you can access at And in there, you’ll find all types of resources to help you and the ministry team at your local church grow and develop as ministry leaders. So there are items for reflection, questions for reflection, different resources there. So be sure to check out to dig even more deeply into the conversation that we’re having here today. And if you’re joining us on YouTube, it’s good to have you along, please give us a thumbs up and be sure to drop your name and the name of your church in the comments below. We love to get to know our audience better, and so we ask that you do that, and our team will be praying for you and for your ministry. And whether you’re joining us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to follow and to subscribe so you don’t miss out on any of these and share this with your team, with your colleagues, so they’ll have the opportunity to follow along now. Like I said, this is an exciting episode. And I am joined by someone whom all of you I’m sure know, it’s none other than pastor of Brooklyn Tabernacle, Jim Cymbala. Jim, welcome to FrontStage BackStage.

Jim Cymbala 
Great to be with you, Jason.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, brother, it’s so good to have you and so thankful and, and Jim, you really have a heart for pastors and for ministry leaders. And that’s been evident throughout your ministry as a pastor, you’ve shared, you’ve given us a peek into your backstage, of what God has led you through at Brooklyn Tabernacle. It’s been so encouraging to so many pastors like myself over the years. But this has just been a part of your ministry, is encouraging other leaders and other other pastors. And we’re so thankful for that. And in the time that we find ourselves, it’s challenging to be a pastor. Now we know it’s always been challenging to be a pastor, if you look back across, you know, the centuries of church history, and in some places and at some times, it’s certainly been more challenging, maybe it’s been less challenging. Yet, being a pastor is a challenging vocation. And right now, here in the US, where we are Jim, pastors are discouraged. Pastors are stepping out of ministry at a growing rate. And, Jim, I would love for you just to kind of speak into what we are seeing right here in North America, and kind of the climate that pastors are experiencing and what are some of the reasons behind some of the discouragement that we’re seeing in the church today?

Jim Cymbala 
Well, the statistics are abundantly clear. The last polling I saw show, saw a few months ago, Jason 42% of all the pastors polled said they would leave the ministry tomorrow if they could just be sure of a job with benefits to cover their family. So that’s a huge number. That’s who will admit it. So imagine the guys pounding the Bible on a Sunday and the Lord is on His throne, but secretly they’re defeated. The pandemic, the racialization of everything, the politicalization of almost everything is taking the toll and pastors and their families are suffering and there’s more empty pulpits now, denominations, several major ones, are in negative growth. And that shouldn’t be given the need, the spiritual needs around us. And I think one of the reasons for that is that as I had 16 months away from Brooklyn during the pandemic, I went down to Florida, ostensibly for five days, ended up 16 months away starting March 2020, because of the spiking here, church shut down, banks shut down, schools shut down. So Carol and I were down in Florida and I was meeting with pastors regularly coming to my home with their wives every week, Baptist pastors Church of God, Assembly of God ,back to Baptist pastors, Latino brethren, African American, and just hearing their stories. And a lot of pressure, a lot of criticism, social media eating them up for lunch, and you know, no matter what position they take, you know, mask, no mask, vaccine, no vaccine. I mean, no, no biblical differences, just any political difference, and people roast you alive, attack. Not because you don’t believe in the divinity of Christ, no, because you don’t take the same political position or whatever, woke, not woke, too woke, and so on and so forth. But underneath all of that, in my judgment, that’s why I wrote Fan the Flame, is pastors now I think are looking at ‘Wait a minute… am I doing this the way the Bible says?’ You know, for doctrine, we always go to the Bible. What do we believe about Christ? What do we believe about creation? What do we believe about the second coming of the Lord? What do we want to find sin, we go to the Bible. But when it comes to preaching, ministry, we don’t go to the Bible. We go by the latest fad, the latest church growth methodology. And it’s costing us because a lot of guys have tried different ones for 18 months, and then they’re gonna do another thing for two years, and they run into brick walls. There’s no converts. There’s no new spirit of prayer and love and spirituality in the church. And then they just get discouraged. They’re tired of selling a new vision, you know, how many visions can you sell in one lifetime? And so that’s why I went to Acts 20, I felt the Lord lead me there, where Paul gives a spiritual selfie of how he ministered for three years in Ephesus. He’s never going to see these leaders again. And he’s called them together. And he just lays out an in-depth look at what he counted as important, how he carried himself, and in some cases, is so far removed from contemporary church work and leadership principles that you think it’s almost another religion. So in this book, it’s a simple effort to say, maybe if we go back to building Christ’s Church, Christ’s way, for Christ’s glory, we won’t have so much burnout and lack of fruit.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, yeah. I love that. You know, what’s interesting, Jim, and you touched upon this a little bit in Fan the Flame, you describe these four kind of major, like detours that can derail a pastor, that can derail a church even. You talk about tradition, talk about the latest trends, you talk about politics, which we see all over the place, and culture. And I’d love it if you’d take a little bit of time, Jim, to walk us through those four different detours and help us process through how pastors might be becoming derailed by some of those.

Jim Cymbala 
Yeah, well, I think at the top of the list from what I learned in Florida, you know, my wife, and I’ve been doing this ministry for decades in downtown Brooklyn. And we started with less than 20 people. And there were, $85 was the first offering I took, to use the term loosely, tithes and offerings with $85. And I didn’t go to seminary. I was a basketball player in high school and college, played in the NCAA tournament, and my sermons were so bad at the beginning that people were converting to other religions while I was preaching. It’s not a good, not a good sign. So I know some of the challenges not in the hospitable area for the gospel work, downtown Brooklyn. There was no crack yet, but a lot of heroin and gangs and alcoholism. And all I had was the Bible and trying to seek God. One of the undergirding problems today is I’ve learned it’s not making converts. It’s a numbers game. Church Growth has sold this bad bill of goods. That the main goal, and some of the church growth gurus, who should be ashamed of themselves, they’re proposing ‘Look, when a new guy comes in for the first time,’ I’m quoting from one of the leading ones, I’m basically paraphrasing, ‘when I see a new guy sitting off the third row of the middle aisle, and it’s the first time there, I only have one thought for the whole meeting. Only one thought: that the vibe, the praise and worship, the songs, the message, and, and just the feel that, one thought, How do I get him back next week?’ The numbers game. Not no one’s thought of that, since the Reformation, no one read through the 15 16 17 1800s. People were thinking, How do I get him to Christ, he might get run over by a semi on Wednesday, and not come back next week, and I gave him Christianity light, and he doesn’t even know how to get his sins forgiven and become a Christian. But that’s too confrontational. No, don’t define sin. People say that’s hate speech, or hey, I didn’t come to be judged, and all that other stuff. So now we’ve done away with the gospel, we don’t believe in the power of the Holy Spirit or the gospel. So now we’re running a numbers game. But the question is, you’re running 200. You used to have 58. Now you have 200. 200 what? Are they Christians? Do they have vital signs that they’ve been born again? Do they love the Word of God? Do they want to be like Christ? Is the Holy Spirit living inside of them? Those questions you don’t even ask. No, no, no, don’t get spiritual now. Just keep them coming. And one of the telltale signs of this is 20, let’s say 20, 25 years ago, let’s take 20 years ago. In 2002, the so-called contemporary, sleek, cutting-edge church had target groups, which is another horrible thought. Someone, someone that Christ died for, you don’t want in your church, because he’s not in your target group. I mean, that just takes your breath away, but whatever. So they were running 18 through 35-year-olds, in 2002, and they were doing their thing, and keeping hip and contemporary and cutting-edge. Well, now it’s 20 years later, and here’s an interesting thing that I made a study of: where are those people? Because they were 45. Back then, or 25. So now they’re 45, 47 with two kids. They’re not in those churches, but they’re not in other churches. These churches are in decline. But the same age group 19 through 32, is in that same church. So is this musical chairs? What exactly is it? And don’t we need all ages and all races to really show the beauty of the kingdom of God. So that is a real trap. And many pastors have never even, younger pastors, have never even thought of what the Bible teaches and what Paul was interested in, which is making converts. That’s the hardest thing in the world, make a convert, somebody gets someone smoking weed all day long, who curses God, and now see, God cleaned them up, and Christ lives in Him and and he belongs to the body of Christ. And then of course, there’s the trap of politics and tying your wagon to either the Republicans or the Democrats, which is an exercise in in futility, because these are unbelievers, these are people who are cutthroat. They’re not trying to build. See, Jesus is not trying to build a better America, or a better New York or better New Jersey. He said in His Word, I’m building my Church. And a lot of ministers and lay people are not interested in building the Church. They’re interested in building their political party up and gaining power, and that’s going to make things better. It’s really tragic when you come to think of it, because instead of representing our Lord and Savior and preaching that powerful message we’ve taken, gone down the rabbit trail to nowhere.

Jason Daye 
Right, right. So what about the tradition piece because you said the tradition piece can can can derail us as well?

Jim Cymbala 
Yeah. In other words, we’re so locked in to… well it’s like this. It’s like this. Most pastors are not searching the Word of God, I don’t think, most, some are and there’s wonderful churches and wonderful pastors, and saying, God, show me Show me new truth. Show me how I can be more effective. No, they’re reproducing the church culture they grew up in. Born a Baptist going to die Baptists, born Assembly God, dah-dah-dah, born a five-point Calvinist, gonna die one. And you know, they want to reproduce John Calvin in Geneva, Switzerland, instead of making an inroad into New York City in 2022. So that’s how tradition, very few, I think, break away from what we were grown up around. We’re just trying to reproduce that. But when you reproduce a cultural setting you are around, you’re going to miss out on the blessing God has for you, which is probably something you can’t even imagine.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, that’s, that’s good. It’s interesting. How both getting entrenched in your tradition, what you’ve grown up with, or what you’ve known. And the idea of, you know, locking onto the latest fad, or latest trend, both of those can derail you.

Jim Cymbala 
And let me be clear. We grew up, I’m sure you did and I did. I grew up around some good things. We heard truth. But then there was a lot of other stuff. For example, I grew up in a little church, my parents drugged me to, dragged me, drugged me, whatever. And they were very strict, kind of legalistic, and and Jesus-focused, but they wouldn’t want a black person within 100 yards of that church. So what should I do? My brother, should I follow the tradition of my elders. I mean, just think of this. People because of the their either their traditions, or the new church growth fad, which is homogeneous congregations grow faster, but we know what that’s a code word for. So just think what that means, people that Christ died for, and shed his blood aren’t on our target list. And there’s more racial diversity in a crack house in Brooklyn, than there is in a church, which has a cross on the top of it. And I told some pastors in Florida listen, if you don’t want black or white, or Latino, or or poor, or gay, or straight, or homeless, if you don’t want them in your church, just please, for the sake of honesty and the sake of Christ, take the cross down off your building, don’t wait till Antifa comes, tear it down, because that’s a disgrace to the cause of Christ. In heaven, Why would God punish some of us and send us to heaven to be with people we tried to avoid the whole time we were on Earth? Think about it. Because every nation, every tribe and tongue are up there. But for some people, that is not good news, because on Earth, they’re just trying to get away and stay with their little social group, racial group, whatever. And that’s not what Jesus is about.

Jason Daye 
Yeah. So Jim, obviously, several challenges. And these challenges can be discouraging. I mean, we just sit and talk about them. We see everything that’s going on the world around us. We think about these trends, we think about these things that can derail us, it can be very discouraging. So what is encouragement that you would offer pastors? Looking at this in a different way, what’s the fresh movement?

Jim Cymbala 
Okay. Well, I think in that book, Fan the Flame, I go back to the Word of God, which is always a good place to start. Jesus is building his Church, not my church. I have no vision for the Brooklyn Tabernacle, because how can I have a vision for someone else’s church? That doesn’t make any sense. He’s building his Church. It’s not polite to have a vision for someone else’s church. He died, he rose from the dead. So he gave us his Word for a reason. He gave us the epistles, the book of Acts for a reason. So when you analyze Paul’s approach to ministry and what he felt was important, maybe it’ll renew our minds and say, ‘Wow, I got a lot of junk up in my head, about, “church work and do it with excellence.” Paul is set up here as a model for us, so let me get back to the Word of God. And what did we find there?’ Paul says, you remember, I preach repentance of sin and faith in Christ to both Jews and Gentiles. Only one gospel. He said, You remember how I went about this? How he starts, you remember the whole three years I was with you, how I served the Lord in deep humility and tears. Well tell me who would, what minister today would start his summary of his ministry with that kind of emphasis on his heart and his humility and the passion that he had for the people? No. Most ministers now avoid being with the people. They’re too important. They’re CEOs, they’re CFOs. So that’s very helpful to me and everybody else. And then to get back, compelled by the Holy Spirit, I’m going to Jerusalem not knowing what will happen to me. Wow. You can still be led by the Holy Spirit what to preach this Sunday, if and when to go into building program. In other words, is this real for today? Or has God died? The Holy Spirit left? You know, Tozer said, years ago, the Holy Spirit could leave planet Earth and go back to heaven and many churches would not notice it for two or three years, because they’ve learned to do church without the Holy Spirit’s assistance and aid. So if we get back to the Bible, and then we get before God in prayer, and say, God, I want my life to count. I have to at the end of the day appear at the judgment seat of Christ, you’re not going to you’re not going to review my work for you by the world standards, who thought I was hip who thought I was not? No, I want to bear fruit so your name is glorified. Show me, teach me, equip me, anoint my messages, change my church, do whatever has to be done, but I’m not going to stop looking to you until you show me the way you want me to go. Then Then, then there’s no God in heaven if he’s not going to respond to that, of course he will. But what we’ve done is we’ve been leaning on our own understanding, and we’re trusting in cleverness, rather than the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

Jason Daye 
Yet, Jim, do you believe that a movement toward trusting the Holy Spirit is what will bring encouragement back to pastors? Because, you know, the struggle is right, that they’re discouraged at this point. They feel like we’ve been trying all these different things. We’re trying to honor God. Do you believe that’s, that’s really the key for the church moving forward to get out of kind of this discouragement and despondency and all the burnout that pastors are facing?

Jim Cymbala 
Yeah, well, for example, Paul, in 2 Corinthians tells us beat 39, that was the legal limit, or they could die, 39 lashes. That happened a few times. Thrown in prison, stoned, thrown in the open sea, spent a night in the open deep, in trouble in the city, trouble in the country, trouble from Jews, trouble from Gentiles, trouble from false brethren, he lists all of that. And he never mentioned once the word burnout, or discouragement. How could that happen? Some guy has a church in Toledo, Ohio, we have a pandemic, he’s ready to quit and run away and sell life insurance. Maybe Paul was drawing from resources that we have left. Maybe there’s grace, that a well of grace that we’re not drawing from. And when the Holy Spirit annoints that word, and gives us insight, and begins to work, and we see prayer answered, and we return to God’s plan of my house becoming a house of prayer. I mean, where would you find in almost any major city or state churches that emphasize prayer? I met a couple of people in Florida who said, Oh, I read some of your earlier books and blah-blah. You know, I know you stressed the prayer meeting and your Tuesday night prayer meeting, and like Spurgeon said, in his church it’s the engine that drives the church, but that’s not part of my vision. We’re not into prayer. So I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Your vision for Christ Church doesn’t include prayer, even though it’s throughout the scriptures? No, no, we’re into like, you know, skinny jeans and the fog machine, you know, you know, you know what exactly I’m talking about? Well, you do that long enough. You grieve the Holy Spirit. And of course, how would we produce fruit if we’re not doing it God’s way? We’re not listen, there’s a lack of, there’s a critical lack of water baptisms, where people’s lives testify I was here, now I’m here. No, you do not. You just hear numbers, and technical, technology. really advanced and very helpful, which is great. I’m not antediluvian. I don’t want to go back to dinosaurs. But my goodness, without the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit, is it a Christian church?

Jason Daye 
Right. Right. Talk to me a little, Jim, about the joy of serving as a pastor. Because again, we see a lot of, a lot of challenges. Yep. Right. And we see that there are ways that things haven’t gone well in the past, we can learn from that. There are pressures, there are expectations. But talk to us about -you’ve been pastoring for a for a long time- talk to us about the joy of being a pastor.

Jim Cymbala 
Oh, absolutely. But that has to be conditioned by, again, the model we have in the New Testament. Paul says, For when I was with you, 1 Thessalonians, I was like a nursing mother among her babies baby taken to the breast, for I was determined to give you not just the gospel, but my life as well. God knows how much I love you with the deep compassion of Jesus Christ. I say all of that, because a couple of weeks ago, a woman came up to me who had responded to an invitation I made to receive Christ. She grabbed me on the side as I was walking out. And she said, You got to pray for me before I leave. Well, we just prayed but I’ll pray again. No, no, no, listen, listen, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta be set free from this crack. It’s destroying my life, destroying my life. One a few weeks before that, handed me her cracked bite. Now we’re baptizing. 50 people here this coming Sunday? I think it is. Or 25. And then a few weeks later, another 25. Well, how do you think I feel when I go to bed at night and know that some woman has a new lease on life, right? She’s going to be in heaven with with us for eternity. And some single mom fighting for her daughter who’s cutting herself and you see a breakthrough. That’s what you live for. You know, I write books. I once won a Book of the Year award. When the Lord comes, what am I going to show him? Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire book of the year? He wrote the Bible, he’s really not impressed. Right? So of course, that’s the joy is to be with God’s people, see God change people, be in love with the body of Christ, whether it’s a grandmother who’s in her 80s from Jamaica, West Indies, or some 17, 18-year-old kid who walks in off the street and has no chance no father at home, a mother who spaced out and here, here he is.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, yeah. The joy is in in where the the work of the Lord is being done, and if we can get back to that, and not be distracted by everything else,

Jim Cymbala 
Yeah, counting attendance numbers, and improving the building and hoping that you’ll be invited to appear on a podcast or become more famous. A lot of this is ego driven instead of Christ driven. I, I really think that right now, a lot. You can hardly watch Christian television, because the egos are the size of Montana, and it’s, it’s turning into our church, our brand, me, the man of God, the anointed one. I mean, just give it a rest. Just proclaim Christ. God forbid that we should glory in anything but the cross of Christ. Now someone can say, oh, that’s old fashioned thinking. No, that’s Biblical thinking, and in the end, the Word of God will endure forever.

Jason Daye 
Yeah, so good. So good brother. Final words of encouragement, as we’re closing down this conversation, for pastors today. What final words would Jim want to leave with pastors,

Jim Cymbala 
The best is yet to come. Just like the wine that Jesus made out of the water, the latter, the wine that they served at the end that Jesus touched and transformed, that was the best wine of all. And that’s what his plan is, for all of us who are laboring for him. No retirement plan, the best is yet to come. Pastors watching this, this Sunday could be the best sermon you ever preach with more of God’s presence than you’ve ever seen, with fruit. It all depends what you do. The last picture we have of, Jason, of Christ in the New Testament, in a sense, is in the seventh letter to the church at Laodicea in Revelation. If you want to count that appearance on Earth. And what’s, what’s going on? Lo, I stand at the door and knock. I don’t care that you’re lukewarm. It hurts me. You’re neither hot or cold. I’m about to vomit you out of my mouth, but I’m at the door. Imagine he’s outside his own church. Now there’s some food for thought. He’s knocking on the door of his own church, and he said, but if anyone will get up and let me in, I’ll come in and fellowship, and then you’ll see everything change. But it leaves us hanging. We never know if that church opened the door. That’s the way it is with all of us. You can’t just live in positional theology and positive thinking. It’s you know, we make choices, what a man sows, he reaps. If we open our hearts to the Lord and say, God, I want something fresh and new, he’s gonna rush in like a mighty wind, of course, he loves us. He wants to see the Kingdom grow. So the best is yet to come, pastors. Come on, let’s do this God’s way, for God’s glory, you’re gonna see an amazing thing.

Jason Daye 
I love that, Jim. I love it. Thank you so much for making time to be with us. And for those who are watching along, Fan the Flame is Jim’s newest book, and it’s written for pastors and ministry leaders, encouragement for you. And we’ll have links to that along with our toolkit for this episode at So, Jim, thank you so much for joining us, brother.

Jim Cymbala 
Thank you, brother. God bless you.

Jason Daye 
All right, thank you. Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at That’s And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.

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