Are People More Spiritually Open Than You Think? : Mark Matlock

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Every week, I have the honor of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and we tackle a topic all in an effort to help you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you really thrive in both life and leadership. We are proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. If you are joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and drop your name and the name of your church or ministry in the comments below. We love getting to know you better. We’ll be praying for you. And please be sure to subscribe and follow so you do not miss out on these great conversations. Really intrigued by this week’s topic and excited for this week’s guest. Mark Matlock is going to be joining us. Mark serves at Barna, where he’s a Senior Fellow. He’s also the founder of Wisdom Works, where he has the opportunity to consult with both national and international faith-based organizations. He serves as Executive Director of Urbana with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and his most recent book is entitled Faith for the Curious. Mark, welcome to FrontStage BackStage, brother.

Mark Matlock
Hey, I am glad to be here, Jason. Thanks for having me.

Jason Daye
Yeah, thanks for making time now. Now, the topic we’re going to dive into, I think, is one that I’m intrigued by. Super excited about diving in. We’re going to be talking about kind of the spiritual state of people, and a lot of the research you’ve done is here in the US. I’ve got to say, Mark, a lot of the conversations that I’m having with people in the church, they aren’t really sensing a lot of spiritual openness, perhaps. In fact, they’re sensing a lot of pushback to the church in general and just those kinds of things. But your research is showing something different, a different story. So, I’m excited for you to share with us, and I guess we’ll just dive into the deep end. Mark, the research that you have done with Faith for the Curious, what have you learned? What have you uncovered when it comes to kind of the spiritual openness and the spiritual curiosity of people today?

Mark Matlock
Well, one of the things I started noticing in research that we were doing at Barna for a lot of different organizations was that there was this group of what seemed to be about 80 or 90 million Americans that didn’t really fit, probably what most of us in the church think of when we think of somebody being outside the church. And it made me question whether or not we were thinking about those who are outside of the church in the right way. That we tend to think of them as being hostile to spirituality or not interested in these things. So I was kind of going, that’s not really what we’re seeing here. So, we found out that the group’s actually a lot bigger than the 90 million, makes up about 67% of the unchurched, and we call them the spiritually curious. Now, there are some different flavors of spiritual curiosity, but they are spiritually curious. But to your point, just because somebody’s spiritually curious and there is an elevated sense of spiritual curiosity and openness, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re open to Christianity or the church, and that’s why we need to understand what’s going on so that we can build an effective bridge to those that are outside of the faith, so they can know Jesus Christ as their Savior and trust him.

Jason Daye
Absolutely. So, Mark, your research has shared that within this world of those who we’re calling spiritually curious, there are some different flavors, some different kind of groups within that. Walk us through some of these different types of people who fall into this category.

Mark Matlock
Yeah. So what we did was we actually measured how open people were or how much people believed in the supernatural world. What we found is that the majority of Americans believe there’s more out there than what you experience with your five senses. In fact, the people that we would consider to be like classic atheists, who believe that there is nothing more than what we experience with our senses, are only about 10% of the US population. So we’re talking about a very small group. Yet, a lot of apologetics, the way we frame, and the way we think about people, think about this 10% and we’re missing this bigger majority. The American Bible Society calls them the movable middle. This group is somewhere in the middle and actually has the ability to move. But we look at this group and we measured whether or not they believe in the supernatural world, and how strongly. Then, on the y-axis, we measured how curious they were in their approach to these things, and we actually used a two-factor scale that measured the qualities of stretching and embracing. So, stretching means how much they are seeking, proactively, new experiences and how comfortable they are sitting with ambiguity and the unknown. Because to be curious requires that you have those two things. So, these are psychometrically validated scales. We use those to measure curiosity, and from that, we were able to get this profile. So we have kind of practicing Christians, which make up about 20-ish percent of our population, and then we have this larger group in the middle that makes up this curious group. Within that curious group, we have spiritually curious and we have curious skeptics, who are a little bit unique in the way that they experience their curiosity and their spirituality, but they’re both very open and seeking and searching for spiritual things. There are people who are lower in their spiritual curiosity. They just aren’t interested in these things. They make up about 14%. Then we have that little group that we call naturalists, who are about 10% of the population, who believe the only thing to experience is with our five senses. So, if you were going to be talking to somebody, you have a one in four chance that that person is already a Christian, practicing Christian. Okay, just to give you an idea of the odds of you sitting next to a person on an airplane and having a conversation about spirituality. There’s a one in four chance that they are already a Christian and they’re connected to church. That’s an amazing number when you think about it. Then the bigger chance that you have is that they believe that there is more out there than we experience with our five senses, and to different extents, they might have more certainty around what they think that is, but they’re definitely open to experiencing more of that. Does that make sense?

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s encouraging because, as you said, oftentimes we think that it’s people who are just putting their hands up and want nothing to do with it, or really kind of set in their ways. But there is this openness. Mark, I’m curious. As you’re doing your research, what was one of the most surprising things that you came across when evaluating these people who are spiritually curious?

Mark Matlock
Yeah, I think one of the great insights because what’s great about my experience with this was I was actually like doing this, as I was trying to share my faith and connect with people outside the church. My son is in Hollywood. My daughter is in New York. They have secular kind of roles in the work that they do. So, I was connecting with a lot of their friends during all of this. So, I was getting kind of a master class in who these people were, up close and personal, and built a lot of relationships with them. In fact, that was one of the challenges of writing the book is going okay a lot of these people that I’m going to be writing about are probably going to read the book. So how do I respect them? How do I make sure that they know that they weren’t a project? That these insights that I’ve gotten from the research aren’t just tactics that I’m using to try to convert them, but that I really am genuinely interested in a relationship. So, that’s the really important thing. Realizing that sometimes our evangelism training has been around efficiency. How do we effectively, accurately, and quickly share a gospel presentation with somebody, and it doesn’t really talk about how do we be a really good friend? How do we really build a relationship with somebody? So what I learned through these relationships with these people, many of which are still ongoing to this day, is that when the spiritually curious are looking for an upgrade, and spirituality is the pathway for an upgrade. So they realize that, you know what, money isn’t doing it for me. Maybe education isn’t doing it for me. Career isn’t doing it for me. I want more of something, and maybe spirituality is the path to something more. Now, as I said, they’re not necessarily turning to Christianity. Some of these people are seeking out spiritual advisors. They’re playing around with Tarot cards. They’re experiencing things like meditation, mindfulness, different degrees of occult practices, versus things that are kind of like current neuroscience types of fads. Not fads, but trends. So, the first thing is realizing, okay, there’s a good chance that if I have a conversation with somebody, they’re already spiritually looking for something more. Now, the really cool insight was, what is the more they’re looking for? Because usually it was connected to the imago Dei in them. So, St. Augustine talked about us having a hole in our souls. And sometimes when we talk about that as pastors and preachers, we talk about people feeling empty, lost, or meaningless. But what if it’s that they feel a little bit of something, and they realize there’s space for more. It’s not a void as much as it is a reality that this could be more, and they’re looking for the upgrade. So what that looks like is maybe they’re really dissatisfied with the unfairness in the world, and they’re connecting with this sense of justice that is the very character of God. And so they’re pursuing right and wrong and the realization of that in the world. Maybe they’re creative, and so they’re connecting with the artistic nature of God, the Creator. Maybe they’re longing for intimacy in a relationship, and they’ve experienced this, but they want more of it. Maybe they have experienced the beauty of generosity, service, or compassion, and they want more of that, and for whatever reason, they’re not getting it, and they’re going, okay, money isn’t doing it, education is doing it. Maybe spirituality is the path to more. So what’s beautiful about this is, if I can identify what that thing is by listening and talking to them about who they are, I’m connecting with the image of God in them, and that little shred or shard of that reflective mirror that’s reflecting God back at them, that sin has broken and marred, and I’m able to connect with them on that. I’d go, you know, God’s creative. I’m creative, too. It’s my relationship with Jesus that helps me be more creative. It’s my relationship with Jesus that helps me experience more intimacy with my wife and others. It’s my relationship with Jesus that grounds me in the sense of seeking justice in the world. But it’s holy. Because we all know that you’re never going to get more of what’s broken without Jesus being a part of healing that. So, that gives me something in common with them, and it also now connects my spiritual experience with a spiritual experience that they’re likely having, too. Sometimes they don’t even know that’s what they’re looking for in their spiritual pursuits. And even connecting the dots, they’re like, wow. But what I’m realizing is, is that we’ve taught people that talking about spiritual things is a party foul, but people are desperate to talk about spiritual things. So it just never fails when I’m out in the world, because I’m open to talking about it. And I think spiritually, that most conversations that I’m having with people outside of the church may not have any history with the church at all. We get into spiritual conversations, and it’s more about me trying to understand what their backstory is than it is about me telling them what I know. And it’s only then, and most time they’re then asking me, Okay, this looks like you’ve really found something here. Tell me more about that, and tell me about your journey. Does that make sense?

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely.

Mark Matlock
So, if we can train our congregants, and if we can have this look of, how do I look for the image of God in people that’s trying to get bigger and connect to that? It’s a whole different way of looking at people outside the church and the purpose of sharing our faith. It’s about them experiencing wholeness and flourishing in the way that God originally designed them to flourish in their lives. And that tends to be a frame that people are open to exploring.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends, just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Yeah, Mark. I love this because, oftentimes, as you mentioned, we kind of approach evangelism or apologetics, those sorts of things, in the vein of, there’s something missing, and so we’ve got to kind of insert something into someone else. We’ve got to kind of convince them that this is the thing that’s missing.

Mark Matlock
And I don’t want to discount that because there are moments when people are experiencing that, and it’s usually in a moment of transition, right? The moment of I’ve lost my job. I’ve lost somebody that is important to me. I’m going through a divorce. Things aren’t going well in the way that I thought they would be. But, those things are happen less and less to people in the United States, where money does answer a lot of problems for people, right? And so these things get a little bit different and harder to really connect. Why is Jesus important? Why do I need this? So I have to find what you are looking for. What does good news mean for you? And I have to look for that to discover that if I’m going to share it with them.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good, Mark. So, we still want to be sensitive to those crisis moments, those transitions, because people experience those. But, the flip side is, not to just be waiting on that or approaching things as if it’s always that we’re trying to fill in the blank with something that’s missing, but instead be prayerful.

Mark Matlock
What’s the path to more? What’s the path? How do I level up?

Jason Daye
Right. Where they’ve tasted it already, and then we can engage with them about that taste that they’ve had. Okay, there’s more of that. There’s more of that available to you. That’s awesome. I love that. So we’ve answered a bit of this, but I’d like to dig in a little bit more, specifically for pastors and ministry leaders thinking about this in the local church context and their own relationships, and even in equipping their people. Understanding the spiritual openness. What are some of the kind of the “do’s” and “dont’s” when we enter into these conversations? Because, again, the idea of a conversation, rather than just us spitting some stuff out at them, what are some do’s and don’ts that we need to keep in mind?

Mark Matlock
Yeah, well, the first thing, I think, is listening and recognizing that God has probably already been at work in this person’s life. So I always try to figure out, where has that been? Where is that presently, right? That just changes the nature of our engagement, right? Where I want to understand their spiritual backstory. So, that’s one frame of a “do” is to listen and be seeking. Curious calls to curious. So, when we’re genuinely curious about another person’s experiences, then they’re going to be curious about what our experiences are as well. I think it goes back to Paul, in Areopagus, where he’s on Mars Hill. And he says, I see that you are a very religious people. You know? He starts by admiring the fact that they are spiritual people. He doesn’t shame them. When I read that passage, I typically like to focus on the part where he goes, You’re worshiping an unknown God. I’m going to tell you what you’re ignorant about, right? That’s typically how I hear it, or heard it. But then I realized, no, wait a minute, he says something on the front end. I see that you’re very religious. I mean, he admires them. And I think that’s one of the things that we don’t look for always or approach people with. We’re looking for what’s wrong. We’re not looking for what’s right. Where is the image of God really showing up in their life, and how can we connect to that? So that’s the first thing is to look for that spiritual connection. That’s a “do”. Another “don’t” is that they probably aren’t going to want to come to church. It’s just a reality that the spiritually curious have moved further and further away from institutional Christianity. That doesn’t mean that they don’t need the church. They just don’t understand the church. And so I’m finding that halfway houses to church are really important. Bible studies that meet in homes, backyard parties, or alpha groups that meet around a meal and then around spiritual conversation. These kinds of things are entrees into church life. But the whole typical bring a friend to church on Sunday, it’s just not going to work. Even though that’s what we want. Even though we know that’s what they need. But another thing that we need to realize, and this came out in the research, because we actually used another scale called the need for the “need for closure” scale, which basically says, How comfortable are we with something being open and unsettled? Our tolerance for ambiguity versus certainty. Now, I want to say this: there’s nothing wrong with having a high need for closure. It’s just like being an introvert or extrovert. You just kind of tend to have one or you don’t. But, when we measured this, those survey respondents in our research, we found that those inside the church had a higher need for closure than those outside the church. So what that means is that probably what is really comforting and soothing to us may be actually boring and actually maybe unsatisfying to a spiritually curious person, and we need to be aware of that. So we need to always keep in mind that church may not be the right experience for somebody who’s spiritually curious, and be comfortable with that work happening outside. Another “do” is to realize that you are one stop on the way of a person’s spiritual journey. That there are probably many stops that they will make before they actually get to a point of decision. A lot of our evangelism methodologies are about closing the deal and making sure that we land the plane, right? I mean, let’s face it, Bill Bright, who brought us some of our best evangelism methodology, was a salesman, right? So, he knew how to package something and present it. But in this era, we need to have a real discernment around when we close, and realize that it may be a longer path toward closing, and that we may only be a stop on that path, and that that’s okay. And that it’s okay that I have this conversation and don’t bring it to a conclusion. That it’s more important to keep the door open and to realize that God is at work in their life, moving them toward that. Then to also know that there is a time when people are ready to really put their trust in Christ, and we can actually make that introduction.

Jason Daye
At PastorServe, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders just like you. If you want to learn more about how you can qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. You don’t want to miss out on this opportunity. That’s PastorServe.org/freesession.

Jason Daye
Yes, that’s excellent. I love those. One thing I’d like to dive into a little bit, Mark, is this idea of fear that, oftentimes, we in the church have. And I want to come from the angle of a fear that, and this goes to this need for certainty or closure. It’s like, well, if I don’t present everything, if I don’t tell them, well, this is why you’re missing. This is why you’re off. If I don’t, then somehow I have failed. There’s this fear of giving that ambiguity. A fear of going on the journey with somebody who can challenge us. And so then people begin to push forward, and then they kind of close down those opportunities for ongoing conversation. So, I’d love to hear, Mark, a little bit about how we temper that fear. What does that look like? How is that impacting the way we’re engaging with the spiritually curious? I’m just really interested in this because I’ve seen this bubble up so much over the last decade, really.

Mark Matlock
Yeah, well, I think one is, obviously, the consequences of not trusting Jesus for our sin are grave, so we have every reason to take this very seriously. To have a lot of gravitas around the decision. I think part of it, though, is, do we really trust God and His Word? And do I really believe that the Holy Spirit is at work, or do I believe this is all my doing, and the work that I am a part of? And I think that’s where I’ve seen things go off the rails, because it’s really important that I have confidence that the Word of God is a living and active book. That I have confidence that the Holy Spirit is at work in this person’s life. There is an element of mystery in how all of this works, and I need to really be in tune with the Lord as I’m going about interacting with another person. I’m always, when I’m talking to people, especially when it’s become apparent to me that they’re really engaging, I’m in this state of prayer. Lord, show me. I’m leaning into you right now, God, to give me your wisdom to know where to go and how far to push this. How do I show this person love, and how do I help them take the next step in their path or their journey towards you or not? I think that’s a really critical thing is, Jesus did this. When we look at the parable, the story of the rich young ruler, where he comes to Jesus, and he says, Lord, what must I do to follow you? And he says, Sell everything you’ve got and then come follow me. And this guy turns away, and he’s disappointed, and Jesus doesn’t chase after him and go, Hang on a second, maybe I was making, let me reframe that. Jesus knew exactly what he needed in that moment to challenge him. And, actually, it’s on my list of like top five things to do when I get to Heaven, is to find out what happened to the rich young ruler. Because I actually believe that the Bible doesn’t give us everything about every person and every encounter. I actually believe, or I want to believe, that he comes around and he ends up following Jesus, much like many of the Pharisees did. That he was struggling in that moment, and Jesus actually put some truth before him that was heavy. So, we can’t be afraid of doing that. Does that make sense? But we have to be okay with people walking away from it, too, to have time to process.

Jason Daye
Yeah. That’s good. That’s super helpful.

Mark Matlock
It’s not about making it easy or making it comfortable. That’s not the loving thing to do. But the idea that we have to close things. Because what we found is that spiritually open people do not like feeling like they’re being closed on, right? That they’re being led through a process. They like things to be more open-ended in nature. Which is great because that’s easier to do than to feel like I have to hit these points.

Jason Daye
Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. That’s super helpful, Mark. I’d like to kind of dive a little bit into thinking about the local church context again. And if you’re sitting down with a pastor, and a pastor has picked up your book Faith for the Curious, has read through it, and is like, Okay, this data, this research, is opening my eyes to what’s going on around me in a hopeful, positive way. Mark, what would you recommend that they begin doing and engaging in, really practically speaking, to help their people, help their community, really lean into this openness that’s available around them?

Mark Matlock
Well, I think, one, and I’ve actually had a couple of pastors who’ve had their whole staff read it, had me come in and meet with their team, and talk through their church. And it’s been really fun. In fact, it was originally talking to pastors about curiosity that I realized how much they were struggling with getting an understanding of what curious people were looking for. It was really hard for them to get into that frame. A lot of it is because we’re immersed in this higher need for closure culture, most of us. So, we’re having people wanting certainty, wanting things to be buttoned down. They’re satisfied with the answers and responses that we give them. The curious people don’t do that. They throw us off-kilter. And being a pastor is one of the hardest things in the world, in my opinion, to do, especially in today’s day and age, where you have so many different perspectives on things that you’re having to navigate from a theological lens and a pastoral lens. It’s really difficult. But the best thing is to actually get out there and be around people who aren’t Christians. I’ve been an ordained minister for about 28 years of my life, and I will say the hardest thing has been staying connected to people who are outside of the church. It’s really easy to get in the bubble. And when I was actually in middle school, my grandmother was in the hospital, and one of our former associate pastors was in a room down the hall from her. She told me this, and I went down and visited him, and he and I, when I was in elementary school, and he was at our church, had this kind of interesting connection. I was really into making stuff, growing stuff, and learning things, and realized that adults had access to toys and tools that we didn’t have. And he was a horticulturalist. He raised orchids, and he had these greenhouses. I thought he was like this mad scientist, and he would bring me test tubes and things like that. And anyway, he said, you know, Mark, you know, what do you think you want to do with your life? I said, I’ve thought about going into ministry, maybe. He said, You know, you and I always connected on my orchids. And I required every church that I was ever a part of to give me Thursdays off to work on my orchids because being part of the Orchid Society, which was this, I guess, club or organization of people that were orchid enthusiasts, was my only connection with people outside of the church, where we had a bond around something that wasn’t church. He said, If you ever go into full-time ministry, find your Orchid Society. And that was really a memorable conversation for me. In fact, when I went to Biola University, which was my first time to be kind of in an all-Christian environment. That was the first thing that I did was try to figure out, okay, we’re splitting theological atoms at the lunch table here. We’re critiquing all of our chapel speakers and all this stuff. But, wait a minute, what about the people who aren’t in this unique environment? How am I connecting with them? And I became a member of a club in Beverly Hills that gave me an opportunity around a hobby, which gave me a point of contact with people who weren’t in the church, and that was my orchid society. And I’m still involved in that to this day. So, it’s kind of an interesting thing that I think we as pastors have to do because we have to model this behavior. There’s a reason why Jesus was considered a drunkard and a sinner and a friend of tax collectors, right? Because he was around these people and engaging them. And a lot of us, for whatever reason, have removed ourselves from some of these environments, and I think it affects our ability to really understand the culture and the world around us and how people are coming to find Jesus.

Jason Daye
That’s so good, brother. I love that.

Mark Matlock
I want to do that without putting pressure on pastors because we’ve already got enough stuff to do. But it is just one of those things of where is that outlet? Where is that place? Because it was life-giving to him, and it’s been life-giving to me to have a place where we have a connection about something that has nothing to do with my vocation as a full-time minister.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. That’s absolutely awesome. The Orchid Society, it’s good stuff. Brother, as we wind down, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much. I just want to give you an opportunity to give some words of encouragement, some words of hope, to pastors and ministry leaders as they’re serving today.

Mark Matlock
Yeah, I think we’re really in an amazing moment where we do have a lot of people who are seeking and open, and we need to make sure that we’re not trying to give them an easy answer in Jesus, but that we’re able to understand the complexity of their search and then understand how Jesus meets them in that space. But there are people who are open like never before. Many of them are far, far, far from ever being invited into our church, and even if they’re close enough to be invited, probably wouldn’t come. So, we have to go into the world, into our Jerusalem, our Judea, our Samaria, to be able to reach them. But there’s an openness there. We need to not be afraid to go there in our conversations with people.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love it, brother. Man, this has been so good and so refreshing. For those of you who are watching or listening along, Faith for the Curious, Mark’s most recent book, unpacks a lot of the research that we discussed here and goes into even more detail about those who are spiritually open and spiritually curious. It’s a great tool for you and the leaders in your local church. And don’t forget, you can go to PastorServe.org/network, and you can download the toolkit that accompanies this conversation. That toolkit has a bunch of different resources, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, which provides some insights and some questions to dig more deeply into the conversation that Mark and I just had, so you can apply it to your local context. You’ll also find links there to Mark’s book, Faith of the Curious, and other resources. So be sure to check that out. Brother, thank you so much for making time to hang out with us here on FrontStage BackStage. Thank you for the amazing work that you’re doing, the research, and how you’re doing the research, then you’re putting it together in a digestible form so that we can really embrace it and apply it to our ministry context. So, thank you for that, brother.

Mark Matlock
Yeah. Thanks, Jason.

Jason Daye
All right. God bless you.

Jason Daye
Here at PastorServe, we hope you’re truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage BackStage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you find the show, so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend, and don’t forget about our free toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.