Encountering God & Experiencing a Revived Mission : Linson Daniel

Full-Text Transcript

As pastors and ministry leaders, how can we lean more deeply into God’s mission when we’re faced with societal disruptions and disillusionment?

Jason Daye
In this episode, I’m joined by Linson Daniel. Linson is the associate pastor at METRO Church in Texas. He is also a senior advisor for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and his most recent book is entitled Reviving Mission. Together, Linson and I look at the backstage of ministry leaders’ lives and the value of a deep encounter with God. Linson then shares a very practical framework on how we can more intentionally engage in God’s mission for ourselves and for the communities that we lead. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of Frontstage Backstage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each and every week, I have the honor and privilege of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and we dive into a topic all in an effort to help you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy, sustainable rhythms and really thrive in both life and leadership. We are proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. Each and every week, not only do we have a conversation, but our team also creates an entire toolkit that compliments the conversation. Now, you can find the toolkit for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In that toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Now, this growth guide allows you to dig into some insights and reflect on some questions, and we encourage you to use this for yourself and for the ministry team at your local church. So be sure to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. Now, at Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders, and if you’d like to learn more about how you can receive a complimentary coaching session, we encourage you to go to PastorServe.org/freesession. If you’re joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and take a moment to drop your name and the name of your church in the comments below. We absolutely love getting to know our audience better, and we’ll be praying for you and for your ministry. Whether you’re joining us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe or follow, so do not miss out on any of these great conversations. We have a great conversation for you this week. At this time, I’d like to welcome Linson Daniel to the show. Linson, welcome.

Linson Daniel
Hey, Jason. It’s good to be here.

Jason Daye
Yeah, good to have you with us. Linson, we’re going to talk about a topic that has literally been around since the beginning of the church. We’re talking about engaging in God’s mission and what that looks like for us as pastors, as ministry leaders, and as local churches. This all started back during Pentecost. It started with the early church. So Linson, the first question I have to ask you and a couple of your colleagues, Jon and Eric, got together, you wrote a book called Reviving Mission. The question I have, Linson, is, what prompted you guys, what observations about what was going on in the world today made you say, Hmm, we need to sit down, and we need to process through the mission of what it means to be the people of God.

Linson Daniel
Yeah, that’s a great question, Jason. I mean, there’s a lot happening in the world right now, especially now after an election in the United States. There’s so much happening. We had a pandemic. People are processing their lives. So, there was just a lot of disruption that was happening in people’s lives all over the United States and all over the world. As church leaders and pastors, we were incredibly attuned to what was going on in the lives of people. In that disruption, what can get lost is a mission, our mission as a church, and I don’t blame us for that, but that disruption did lead us to look at some cracks in all of our churches, including my own, about, are we on mission? Are we about the Great Commission? So that’s what really started to inspire us to write this book. But not only the disruption, but just like the beginning of a new day, we can kind of look out, and you can kind of see that the sun is coming up over the horizon, and we sense that God is doing something special and new in the United States and around the world about a sense of his renewing of the church, and we’re seeing it right now at the university. I mean, we’re seeing college students come to Christ in various universities, baptisms with hundreds of students coming to faith and getting baptized. We’re seeing it all over the world. So you can kind of see the first fruits of a new day. So both the disruption and the sense of a new day have caused us to say, Here, right here in the middle, how are we going to make sense of the disruption and prepare both ourselves and our churches for what God is about to do?

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s awesome, and that’s encouraging, too, Linson, because oftentimes we’ll look at the news, we’ll look at the media, we’ll read some blogs, or we’ll jump on X or whatever, and it’s like, it doesn’t feel like it. So, it’s so good to hear from you, Linson, and from others, the stories of hope and of the fresh things that the Spirit’s doing. So I appreciate that. Linson. I’d like to ask you another question. If you think of the backstage of our lives as pastors and ministry leaders, the kind of personal side, those experiences we have, those relationships we have with our spouses, with our kids, or with close friends, kind of the emotions that we experience and go through. What, from the backstage, Linson, are some of those encounters or experiences that you had that helped you, or again, kind of prompted you to think through, hey, as the church, we need to maybe reinvest some time in embracing God’s mission for such a day as this.

Linson Daniel
Yeah. I mean, my friends Jon and Eric, as we were writing the book, the book sits on a framework called the four E’s, and the first E is mission has to start with an encounter with God. For a lot of us as church leaders and pastors, that’s, as you were saying, in the backstage. Maybe people don’t see it, but we can’t really lead our church, a small group, your neighborhood, your kid’s soccer team, or whatever it is. You can’t lead people to a place that you haven’t actually gone before with God. Feeling like the mission of God rests on our shoulders alone, or this renewal that we’re seeing God do rests on us alone and on our talents and gifts alone, will be a very difficult thing. It would be like trying to row the ocean. There’s just no way we’re going to have enough strength to do that. So, all true mission must not only be reviving for the communities that we’ve been sent to, but there’s something about we are revived when we are on mission for God. Then again, it goes back to a place of encounter, spending personal time with God, knowing that even in your marital relationships, God could show up and teach you something special in that, and be aware that in all moments, in all spheres of life, we can encounter God. It’s not just in your Bible study. It’s not just in scripture study, prayer, or quiet times, but God is constantly speaking to us, wanting to shape us and give us the inspiration, direction, and guidance for mission. Again, we are not just a tool used by God as we follow his voice and as we follow His guidance, we know that in that obedience, we are being revived, and we are being renewed as we follow Him. So, that backstage of our life, the encounters with God are so powerful. I mean, if mission doesn’t start with encounter, if it starts with ourselves, we’re going to burn out. So going back to that rowboat, we could try to sit there and get all our staff teams to just row harder and row harder, but we’re never going to get anywhere. But if we rely on a power or the Spirit of God who’s outside of us and who’s on mission with us, what we’ll end up learning to do is we’ll start to put up sails instead and trust that the wind of the Spirit might be moving in a certain direction. Instead of us fighting against that or being contrary to that, let’s put up a sail. Let’s take a moment to stop. Let’s see what’s going on in life. See what God’s doing, and when that sail catches that wind, not only will I be moved and refreshed and rejuvenated, but everybody in that boat with me is going to experience an acceleration, a sense of God’s presence, of God’s move, greater than we could have ever done with our own skills and talents, right? So encounter is huge. We need to hear from God. We have a lot of people pouring into our lives right now, news media, blog posts, I love podcasts, but there are a lot of voices, and oftentimes, we really need to hear God’s voice in order to be able to be truly rejuvenated and be able to lead a church towards that reviving mission. You know what I’m saying?

Jason Daye
Yeah, I absolutely love that, Linson. I love that. So let me ask you just a personal question, kind of an aside here. For you personally, Linson, when you’re looking at encountering God, as you say when you’re looking at trying to not allow his voice to be drowned out by so many other competing voices. What are some practices that you have found important as you’re in that encounter mode and listening for God?

Linson Daniel
Yeah, for me personally, you can see this all throughout the book as well, but we help people move into a posture of like truly seeking. It’s not that God is not on the move. He is and he is also seeking after us. But there’s something about us as leaders and pastors, where we have set our posture to seek after him. For me personally, and you’ll see various anecdotes, in the book. But for me, it’s prayer and fasting and just taking time to fast, getting rid of some of these distractions, and moving into a time of prayer and letting the scriptures feed into that. One of the practices we share in the book is to go on prayer walks where you’re like, I’ve been praying for my neighborhood, I’ve been praying for my kid’s soccer team, or whatever it is, and you decide I’m going to drive out there, I’m going to walk around that place, and I’m going to pray and ask God to show me because our God’s not a static God. He’s a God that’s on the move himself. Oftentimes, we don’t pick up on what he’s doing because we’re never moving either. So when we’re moving, and we’re like, Man, my God is on the move in this city. He wants so many families here to know what he’s up to. You’re on the move, you’re praying, you’re listening, and oftentimes, coupled with fasting and prayer. These are the moments for me where I really start to feel a sense or an impression, or driving me back to scripture that’s inspiring me to take some bold moves maybe I wouldn’t have taken before if I hadn’t taken this time to encounter God in that space. There’s an old story about, God, if you want to bring revival to the city, I’m going to draw a circle around myself, and believe that first I want this revival to happen inside this circle, and then believe, from the overflow, that you’re going to renew and revive my spouse, my children, my cousins, my aunt, and my neighborhood through that. So I have found fasting, prayer, and getting out in nature or reading scripture has really helped me tune into the voice of God and helped me kind of lower the volume on all the other voices in my life. I hope I’m making sense there.

Jason Daye
Yeah. I love that, Linson. That’s excellent and I know that we started with the first E in this framework of 4 E’s that you lay out in your book Reviving Mission. I kind of fast forward, I think, around to the final E when we talk a little bit about habits, and we’ll get to that some more. But I’d love for you to walk us through this framework that you present in Reviving Mission as a way for us to maybe be intentional about what it means to engage with God in his mission.

Linson Daniel
Yeah, so I have to give a lot of credit to my co-authors, Jon and Eric. They were the ones who first came up with this really neat model and then invited me into exploring the scriptures and kind of seeing how it unfolds, especially in Jesus’s ministry, his disciples, and Paul’s mission. But what we’ve noticed over and over again is these four E’s. Having an encounter with God is critical to a reviving mission, right? So after encountering God, usually, there’s an impulse to go, obey, or do something in that place of encounter. But what do we do? Instead of coming into a place, or coming into your church or a neighborhood with everything ready, instead to have a posture of exploration, which is the next E. Explore what God might be already doing in a place because we may not know that God’s already moving in a person’s life and in their heart, or God’s already got a small group kind of meeting in that neighborhood and you didn’t even know about it until you started to explore. So as you explore a place or a network of people, you begin to run into people of peace. We see that all throughout Scripture. Before a new opportunity, geography, or network was opened, Jesus, Paul, or his disciples met a person of peace, and it was in that exploration. That exploration not only helps us meet people, but it helps us learn about a place. Like what’s been going on in my neighborhood? What’s presently going on in my neighborhood? As you get to know people’s stories, you learn about what might have happened in the past in that place, and then together, you begin to pray for a bright, new future because God is a God of yesterday, today, and forever, and he cares about people from all backgrounds and ethnicities. As you go and explore with this open heart, you’re trusting that my God is not stagnant. He’s on the move and I’m going to keep following him. As I explore, I meet new people and learn stories about a place. So that’s explore. Then as you meet people, remember we don’t have any power in and of ourselves. So that third E is to empower people, not with power from ourselves, but power from God. Help people have an encounter and explore also, which will then lead to a place of empowerment, where they feel led by the Holy Spirit, led by Jesus, and to trust what God is doing in their life. So their skills and their talents all get activated, and they begin to trust the Lord for themselves. And an authentic, almost genuine, or even indigenous I might say, expression of God for your neighborhood, for that network, for your church, begins to get activated in the people that are already there. So we empower people by serving them and sending them. So in a world where power is often coalesced or held tightly, in the kingdom of God, God is so generous with power, he gives away power. So he teaches us to do the same thing. Give away power. Empower other people to get involved in the mission of God. Then the last E is, after that empowerment, we’ve got to establish, which is the fourth E, communal rhythms, habits, or habitats for these rhythms to reside in. So we want to teach the people of God to keep up certain rhythms so that they will always be able to encounter him again, explore, and empower. We want to keep up those rhythms in a place. We want to be leaders that establish those habits and the habitats those habits reside in, in a place. So that’s kind of the overall framework. I hope that makes sense. We believe that we see that all throughout scripture on how to be a part of the reviving mission of Jesus.

Jason Daye
Absolutely, Linson. So I’d like to lean in on the last one there for just a moment because a lot of us… yes, establish. So a lot of us, when we think about establishing rhythms, we think of habits, right? It’s often spiritual practice habits. But you go a step further, you talk about habitat. So that might be something fresh, something new, that people are like, wait, Linson, what exactly do you mean? I kind of understand establishing habits. What does it mean to establish habitats?

Linson Daniel
Yeah, so we kind of felt inspired. Obviously it makes sense to be inspired by God. But like, God cares about building habitats. I mean, you go all the way to the Garden of Eden, the way he separates, forms, and fills things. He makes this beautiful creation. Then he makes a beautiful garden, and he puts Adam and Eve in it, and he gives them tasks and habits, but he creates a habitat for them to flourish and thrive in. Then, as you fast forward to the end of Scripture, the marvelous thing is we have a new habitat, a new heaven, and a new earth, and it’s a beautiful place. It’s the City of God. In God’s poetic fashion, there’s still a garden in that city, and it’s a beautiful habitat where our habits will continue to flourish for eternity. So in that time and space between those two awesome events, God’s calling us to be like him. Master gardeners and architects, both of those things together because we want the habits that we hand to people to not be contrary to what’s going on around them, but to resonate inside the habitat that they’re in. So we’ve got to start thinking like architects. Okay, so what structures or systems in my church are best for some of these, somebody’s ease, for example? If I want people to encounter God, Hmm, I’ve got a lot of things, as a pastor, a lot of levers I could pull on. I could say, I want you guys to encounter God in your personal times. When I push something out through the website and say, you have your own little encounter with God. That’s the habitat I decided to go, where you’ve got your small group system, and you’re saying, Actually, I would love for people to encounter God in community. So I’m going to push out a new series, a new teaching, or some kind of training for the leaders so that they can experience it in that smaller community. Or perhaps God’s leading you, as a pastor, to say, actually this encounter, I think it needs to happen at the corporate level. So you might design your Sunday morning experiences in a different way, such that the value of encountering God gets spread throughout the entire congregation. Now I’m not saying it has to be just one of those. It could be a combination of all those structures, but you’re starting to think about it as an architect. What habits or which habits should go into which habitats in order for it to flourish and for the people of God to flourish because that’s truly the reviving mission, right? It’s that I’m being revived, my church is being revived, my neighbor is being revived because I’m doing a good job emulating God by taking habits and sticking them in right habitats. I hope I’m making sense there.

Jason Daye
Yeah, definitely. I love that. Now you, Eric, and Jon all share a number of stories and experiences. I would love, Linson, if you could maybe share some experiences that you’ve had, some things that you’ve seen as the local church comes together and begins to lean into the 4 Es and this idea of reviving mission. What are some stories or some things that you’ve seen come out of this?

Linson Daniel
Yeah, well, I’ve got an awesome story about that that I’d love to share. So I’m currently in a room right now, which, if I rewind the tape, maybe just two years ago, we wouldn’t even be in here. So it was our first time as a church. We decided we wanted to see God plant another church to kind of reach the people in our city. The thing is, when God began to speak to us, we were in the middle of a pandemic. Everyone’s wondering, How in the world are we supposed to do this? So all through this time, we have been having these kind of ongoing prayer meetings at our church. So people would be coming to church to pray and it was in this place of encounter that we begin to hear this phrase, like this kind of calling, that God’s calling us to plant the church. So we would even look at a map and wonder, God, where do we go? What do you want us to do? So we brought a team together because we think we’re supposed to plant a church. When people ask us, where are you going, we don’t know yet because all we have is that God’s voice is clear, but the vision is not. I’ll tell you right now, for any pastor that’s listening to me, that’s like the worst thing you feel like you could say to a church. Like, I’m not 100% sure what the vision is, but I feel God. I hear God’s voice leading us. The church stuck around because it’s pandemic, and they’re like, Okay, something’s wrong with our pastors, right? So we’re like, we’re hearing the voice of the Lord, so put a team together. I’m like, Guys, maybe we should just explore. So one of the guys at our church has this huge van and a bunch of our guys piled into it and just start praying. They’re like, God, I know you want to reach the city. Help our hearts to line up with your heart. We don’t want to do anything out of selfish ambition. We know we heard you in these prayer meetings. A lot of us felt you. Where do you want us to go? Who are we supposed to meet? Then one of the guys in the van was like, Hey, why don’t we stop off at that coffee shop right there? I kind of feel like maybe stop there. Everyone was like, hey, it’s a cup of coffee. It would be great. So they walk in, and all of a sudden they meet the owner, and the owner is like, Hey, who are you guys? So my background, Jason, is that I’m Indian, Indian American, and so my parents are from India. I was born here. A lot of our church really reaches that demographic. It’s one of the most unreached demographics in our Dallas Fort Worth metro place. Many are not Christians. So we walked in, and lo and behold, the owner was another Indian guy, which we were not expecting. He was like, Hey, what are you guys doing in here? My initial reaction is, this person might not be a Christian, right? But turns out he’s a Christian, loves the Lord, and right before the pandemic happened, God told him to open a coffee shop. He doesn’t know why. He’s in the IT sector. So he’s like, God told me to open the store and I’m supposed to help people, and maybe a church or something. The guys from the van are like, I think we’re that church. So they shake hands and get to know him and he’s like this is amazing because I had wondered what I was doing. So he connected us and networked us with more and more people in the city right there in his coffee shop. We start running Bible studies out of his coffee shop. Started meeting more people. He got so excited and then that led us to meeting a realtor. That realtor was like, hey, there’s an amazing storefront right next to an Indian restaurant. We’re like, that’s exactly where we want to be. So through a lot of other negotiations, trusting God, empowering the skills of not just preachers, not just worship leaders, but real estate agents and IT individuals. Taking everyone’s gifts and talents and empowering them to do what they know how to do. Because I can’t close real estate deals, right? Then those who are very generous, ready to give lavishly to the kingdom of God, all their gifts begin to get activated. Then we moved into this property and started a church here. Slowly but surely, every single year, we’re seeing it grow as we establish rhythms of prayer and worship. Right here, around all these Indian Americans who are walking by thinking like, what’s going on in here? Well, let me introduce you to Jesus. No, like Jesus, really, and they see this expression that looks a lot like them, but it’s different, and they begin to experience God. We have seen some wonderful things happen here, but it all started even in the pandemic, in the time of hearing God’s voice, exploring what he’s doing, and just empowering everyone around us because we didn’t know what to do. God uses everyone’s gifts and talents, and here we are establishing a place for God’s kingdom, and we’re seeing it happen. So the church has been in existence, gosh, for about 30, almost 40 years, and this is our first attempt at planting a church. Anyone will tell you, even those who might be watching or listening, that planting a church is hard and it’s not always easy, but here we are. We can’t take credit for being successful at all. It’s only because God was leading us every step of the way. So I hope that kind of, in some ways, encapsulates what happens. Because not only is this neighborhood being revived, right? But, man, we are so excited. We are like, it’s awesome to be a part of the Kingdom of God. It’s awesome to see our church flourish and see more and more people get excited in the midst of the neighborhood being revived. We ourselves are being revived in God’s presence, you know? So, yeah, that’s just a quick story.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love it. What an awesome story, Linson. Thank you for sharing that. We do talk a lot about, and we’ve seen the studies and statistics about pastors and ministry leaders burning out or checking out. Just the stress and a lot of that is because of what we said in the very beginning. A lot of disillusionment and a lot of crazy things going on in the world around us. But, Linson, this idea of reviving mission is not just saying, Hey, we’re going to work a little bit harder. Hey, we’re going to just try to keep cranking things out here. It’s that idea that we are being revived ourselves. We are getting a fresh empowerment from the Spirit ourselves to help us. It’s not just working harder. It’s pulling back, as you said, encountering, listening, experiencing that, and exploring, which is fun, right? Exploring is a fun thing. I absolutely love that. Linson, as we’re kind of winding down this conversation, this has been phenomenal, I would love to give you an opportunity. You have the eyes and ears of your brothers and sisters who are serving on the front lines as well in ministry. Linson, what from your experience, from you being kind of revived in regard to this mission, what words of encouragement do you have for others who are serving on the front lines?

Linson Daniel
Yeah, for those ministry leaders that are listening right now, church pastors, man, I’m right there with you. It has been a tough couple of years. It’s been hard and I don’t want to ever take away from that. For some of you who feel like, man, maybe it’s over for me, I understand. I had some really difficult moments and I shared a great story with you. But there were moments that were really hard. My friend, yeah, both my friends, Jon and Eric, the way they kind of help us end the book together. Jon writes a story about the joy of Jesus and one thing about joy and happiness is that joy is based in Jesus and happiness kind of ebbs and flows with our circumstances. So when our church is doing great, we feel happy. When the church isn’t doing great, we might feel sad, but joy is based in Jesus and being his. If there’s one piece of encouragement, I’d say is this reviving mission, one of the most beautiful things about it is not just the outcome. One of the most beautiful things about the reviving mission of Jesus is you get to be with Jesus the whole time. I just think about the apostles and even Paul, one of the things that just kept them going was their constant relationship and friendship with Jesus. There was something about being connected to him in this work that made even the hardest days worth it because they were just hanging with Jesus the whole time. When the 70 were empowered, and they went out and they were gone two-by-two, barely trained, right? Barely trained to do anything. They came back full of joy and Jesus was like, Don’t worry. All that stuff is great and I love all that, but rejoice that your name is written in the Book of Life. We’re together, we’re a family. Jesus was full of joy when they came back. It brought him great joy that they were enjoying the mission of God and being connected to him. So I guess if there’s one thing I just want to say is, hey, I know it’s hard right now, but the joy of Jesus awaits all of us. So whether it’s here in this life, when we get to see our ministry flourish and all of that might happen, or if it’s in the life to come, one thing is for sure, Jesus won’t leave us, and that is the great central part of the reviving mission of Jesus. It’s his mission. It’s with him. It’s in relationship with him. His joy is complete when he sees our joy and our joy is complete when we see his because it’s all in relationship with him. So hang in there, brothers and sisters. God is good, the mission of God is good for us, and joy is what awaits me and you. So yeah, that’s what I’ll say, Jason. I just want to share my heart and my love to all of those of you who are on the front line. I know it’s tough every Sunday, week in and week out, to trust God. But deep down inside, we’ve got the joy of the Lord, Amen?

Jason Daye
Amen. Love that. Great word, brother. Great word. Hey, real quickly, Linson, as we’re winding down if, people want to connect with you, how can they find you? How can they connect with you? How can they learn more about the book?

Linson Daniel
Yes, RevivingMission.org, you can go there. It’s kind of our hub for everything. If you’re on Instagram or Facebook, just type in “reviving mission book”, and you’ll be able to find all of us there, all of our individual handles and information is there for all the authors. But go to RevivingMission.org and that should help you find everything. The book doesn’t come out, Jason, till December 17. But if you pre-order now on Amazon there will be a workbook and a devotional, a lot of stuff that will come with it. So if you subscribe to the email newsletter, we’ll make sure you and your audience gets everything that they need. I think it’s going to be a real blessing because we didn’t create any of this apart from doing ministry. We are ministry leaders like you. We’re just basically putting all the information and things we learn practically in that book. I think it’ll be a great blessing to everyone. So RevivingMission.org, subscribe, and we’ll help you with all the information and resources you need.

Jason Daye
Awesome. I love that. I love all those additional resources you’re putting together. For those of you who are listening or watching, if you’re on the treadmill or you’re driving down the road and can’t jot all that down, you can go to PastorServe.org/network, and there you can get the toolkit for this conversation that Linson and I had, along with lots of resources. But we’ll have links to Reviving Mission. We’ll have links to where you can sign up to get more information on the studies, the tools, and the resources that go along and complement the book itself, and get you connected to all of that. So you can always find that at PastorServe.org/network. Awesome, brother. Thank you so much, Linson, for making time to hang out with us. I love what you, Jon, and Eric have done. I love the resources and how you’re resourcing the church. And I love, as you said, that this comes out of practical engagement. This isn’t theoretical, this is like boots on the ground. This is living it out. I absolutely love that, and it comes through in the book, brother.

Linson Daniel
Yeah, thank you, Jason. Truly appreciate this opportunity and am always honored that people take the time to listen. So thank you so much.

Jason Daye
Awesome. All right. God bless you, brother.

Jason Daye
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