An Ex-Muslim’s Journey in Ministry : Naeem Fazal

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hey, friends, welcome to another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each and every week, I have the privilege and honor of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and we dive into a conversation, all in an effort to help you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you thrive in both life and leadership. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. I’m going to be joined by Naeem Fazal. Naeem is the founding and lead pastor of Mosaic Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. He’s written a number of books, including his latest, which is titled Tomorrow Needs You. Naeem, welcome to the show.

Naeem Fazal
Hey, thanks for having me, Jason. Man, looking forward to this.

Jason Daye
Yeah, super excited that you’re able to make some time to hang out with us today. We’re going to dive into a topic that is not one that we all love to talk about, and that is the idea of fear. Acknowledging our fears. Addressing our fears. But Naeem, you have some, I think, really fresh ways of talking about how God invites us to not just face our fears, but to move through our fears. So, we’re going to get to that, but before we get there, Naeem, for those who may not know your story, I would love for you to share a little bit, not only about where God has you now, but a bit of your journey with with Jesus, if you could.

Naeem Fazal
Yes, of course, I’d love to. Yeah. So I have quite the interesting journey, as you know. Right now, I’m the pastor of Mosaic Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. So, how did I get here? Well, it didn’t start like you would think, like any story would, because I grew up in the Middle East. I grew up in Kuwait, and I grew up Muslim. I’ve got family there, and I have two brothers, two sisters, but we were actually Pakistanis there. So we were actually immigrants in Kuwait because Kuwait does not give you citizenship. So yeah, we stayed there, lived there, grew up there. I was born there, obviously. Then came to the States, and came here as a Muslim right after the Gulf War, if you remember that, this is in the 90s, though. Yeah, and then I had a supernatural experience with Jesus in my room, actually, and that night, I knew that I was called to be in ministry. That led to me pursuing being a pastor, being ordained, and all that, and then eventually starting Mosaic Church in Charlotte. That’s the Cliff Notes, you know?

Jason Daye
The cliff knows, yeah. Your story is fascinating, brother. I love in your story that like your brother, who came to the US before you found Christ, and his life was transformed, which was kind of cool. Then, you told him, Hey, keep that on the down low, brother, you know? I mean, don’t let your family know you found Jesus, and then you have this incredible experience, and it’s just a beautiful story. Love to hear and read about that.

Naeem Fazal
Yeah, the first book I wrote was called Ex-Muslim, and it’s just my story and the story of my family. There, I go into details about when I first heard from my brother, Mahmoud, that he was a Christian. I mean, I threatened to kill him. I mean, it was pretty intense that day because he was going to tell Mom and Dad about it, and I just couldn’t believe he was doing that. Because in Islam, sometimes, depending on the family, it comes across that if you convert to another religion, you’re a traitor, because Islam is like a global nationality for us. So yeah, it just felt like he was being a traitor. So then, when I came to the States, I can tell you the story,  if your listeners want to hear.

Jason Daye
Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

Naeem Fazal
Okay. So, I came here to the States, and then my brother invited me to FCA, Fellowship of Christian Athletes. Yeah, so I didn’t know what that meant. He was like, Yeah, you want to come? I’m like, I’m not interested. Because I knew that he was kind of, he wasn’t even American, you know? I mean, I thought I knew that America was Christian in one sense, but I didn’t. But his friends were on another level, you know? So he was like, You want to come? And I’m like, not interested. He said, Hey, there are some really cute girls there. And I was like, All right, man, I’m interested. So I show up, Jason. I show up. And that’s when I heard about the gospel, this idea of a God that wants such a personal relationship. That he wants to move past religion. I heard about this idea of God sending His Son, Jesus, dying for our sins, making a way. It was so weird to me because in Islam, God is a God that’s far off. He’s almighty. He is up there. He doesn’t interact with humanity a whole lot, and there are certain things you’ve got to do to get to him. Here I was reading the Gospel where Jesus pursued us. So, in religion, in any religion, it’s basically man’s goal, or his work is to prove that he loves God. So, you do the work to prove that you love God, or you love the gods, depending on your religion. But, in the Gospel, it’s the other way around. It’s like, no, Jesus proved that God loves you, and so you’ve got Jesus pursuing you, and then this whole idea of even God being so personal that He invites us to be in a relationship with him, and then we become the Temple of His Spirit. So God doesn’t live in temples and in churches. He lives in actual people. So that was so fascinating to me. My brother kept on saying, You know, Naeem, if you would just ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you, he’ll do it. And so I was fascinated by that, but I didn’t really think anything of it. I’m like, first of all, I think you’re full of it. Like, that doesn’t happen, you know? And I made fun of him, too. I mean, we had some fun debating. But then one night, man, at FCA, they ended in prayer, and I just looked up. I don’t really pray. I wouldn’t consider that praying. I mean, I just looked up and I said, If this is even half true, I want to know, and that’s it. And then I said, You know what? But it’s not real, and I’m talking to myself, and that’s it. That’s all I did. I didn’t tell my brother about this either. Three nights later, I was in my room trying to fall asleep, and, man, something crazy happened. I noticed my body was reacting to something that I could not see, but could really sense and feel. I felt like death and evil walked into the room. I felt like there were things in the room. I just couldn’t, I was trying to figure out what was going on. I know, like, my heart was racing. I just, I was like, my body was definitely reacting to something, and my brain was just trying to catch up to what was happening. So as I was thinking these thoughts, all of a sudden, something grabs my shoulders, drags me, and pins me to my pillow, and I just react like, I try to get out of it, and something holds me down. I’m not quite sure exactly what’s going on, because I’m like, Is this a dream? What is happening? Because I wasn’t asleep. I mean, I had the lamp next to me still on. The only thing I could move was my neck, and I’m looking around, and so I start screaming and yelling out for my brother who’s in the other room, and I realized I can’t hear myself speak. So I’m like, I don’t know what’s going on, but there’s evil in the room. I can sense it and feel it. All of a sudden, the door opens up, and in walks this thing. Man, tell you what. I mean, as I said, I grew up Muslim, so we’re not really into demons and angels and things like that. We’ve got these things called jinns, but that’s a different thing. So in walks this thing. And I know this thing is, I didn’t have a name for it, but it was a demon, and this thing walks towards me, starts communicating to me, and he tells me he’s gonna kill me, and that I’m gonna die, I’m gonna die. And I’m convinced. I’m like, yeah, oh my gosh. And then, man, I’m like backtracking in my mind. I’m like, Oh my gosh. Who did I tick off? You know what I’m saying? Like upstairs, Allah, because you’re not supposed to doubt, and I doubted. Was it Jesus? Like, I made fun of Jesus. I mean, this doesn’t look anything like the pictures of Jesus, but is this Jesus? I mean, like, someone’s ticked off at me. So this thing keeps walking up towards me, and as it reaches my bed, something happens, and it goes away. It just disappears. Whatever was holding me, let’s go. All so fast and like looking around, just stunned in my bed, going, What just happened? The room is still strange. I get up, run out of the room, wake up my brother, and tell him what happened. As I’m telling him this, I’m hoping he was like, oh, man, it’s just a bad dream. Something happened, maybe, you know, I don’t know, something. But what he did tell me was, Oh, this is all true. I’m like, What do you mean this is all true? Then he said, This stuff is in the Bible. And I’m like, What? What do you mean it’s in the Bible? Because I had never read the Bible, so I had no idea. I just thought it was the same kind of religious book that every religion has. Like stuff you don’t really understand. But he’s like, no, no, there are stories of Jesus interacting with demons. I’m like, you’re blowing my mind right now. What are you talking about? So he starts telling me more things. He tries to explain what could be happening. He tells me more about the gospel. He tells me all this stuff, and I just stop him, and I go, Listen. I’m convinced there’s something out there that wants to kill me. So I need some serious help, and then he says this, and I’ll never forget this. He said, The only person that I know who has authority over demons and angels is Jesus. So I’m like, Okay, well, let’s do it. Like, what do we do? And he was like, You want to pray? I’m like, yeah, so, I mean, we get to it. And he was like, Okay, I want you to repeat after me. Before he does that, I just stop him and I say, Hey, listen, can I just say something? Because, you know, to me, I was like, I grew up worshiping a god or praying to a god in Arabic. Now I speak Urdu, which is my native language. I did speak Arabic as well because I lived in the Arab world, but I went to an Indian school, so I speak Hindi as well, so there are multiple languages, and then English and all that. So, anyway, I just want to have a conversation. I just want to start this right. So, I say, I want to say something first before, and I just say a prayer. And I say, Jesus, I don’t know who you are, so I can’t say, I love you. I don’t know you. I can’t say you’re the Lord of my life. I just don’t know you. But if you will save me from this, I’ll give you my whole life. So, and then I prayed with my brother. So, amen, amen, all good. I opened my eyes. He is, like, smiling. He’s like, so excited, you know? I am still scared to death, like, okay, now what? And he was like, Alright, man, I’ll see you in the morning. And I’m like, Well, okay, move over. He’s like, no, no, no, you’ve got to go. I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no, I’m spooning you for a month. You know what I’m saying? I’m not going back in the room. So he’s like, go back in the room, and he gives me a Bible, and Jason, it is smaller than my iPhone. You know the Gideon Bible, like, just the New Testament? I had never held a Bible, Jason. I was like, uh, what is this? This is the entire Bible? Like, for hobbits? What are we talking about? What is this? And he says, No, no, no, it’s the New Testament, and he explains it to me. He’s like, listen, you’ll be fine. I was like, Listen, that was a big demon. I need a big, whole Bible. Like, I need something big that I can throw at it. So, finally, I go back in the room, turn on all the lights. I’m reading this Bible, and I’m freaking out. Then I’m like, an hour past, and I’m losing my mind. I’m still scared to death. Then I’m thinking about all the experiences I’ve had since then. I mean, I had just come from a war-torn country, survived bombings, and was held at gunpoint. I mean, just been through a lot of stuff, and now I’m like, I got demon problems? What’s going on? What’s the deal? Then I just get so mad. I’m just so mad. I’m like, whoever’s up there, I don’t want this. I don’t want any of this, leave me alone kind of thing. So I went, shut off the lights, got on my bed, and I said this. I mean, you know, it’s part of my story, so it’s terrible, but I said it. I looked up and I went, Jesus, if I die tonight, it is your fault. And that’s all I said. I was in my head, hoping nothing happened. And a couple of minutes later, I found myself sitting on my bed looking right at him. And when I say looking right at him, I mean, it was Jesus. And he was like, I am Jesus, and your life is not your own. Now I can’t explain to you what I saw, because I literally was like, I was looking at him, but I remember saying, Oh, I’m inside of you. Like, I’m looking at you, but I’m inside of you. It was the craziest experience, and I don’t even know how long it lasted. I just knew that I’d entered into like another dimension, walked into a portal. I don’t even know, man. All I knew was this physical body could not be in his presence for long. Like, I couldn’t keep my eyes off of him, but I couldn’t keep my eyes open, like I could not take it, and then I just fell asleep. I mean, he knocked me out. The next morning, I just got up and I had a download. I went to my brother, and I was like, Hey, I’m supposed to be in ministry. I don’t even know what that means. Yeah, man, then it was off. It was off.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends, just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Yeah, amazing story. Thank you for sharing, brother. That’s so encouraging because, man, it’s so good. I mean, we know God’s real. We know Jesus is real. We know Jesus is active, and these things are happening, but we don’t always see it to that degree. So it’s good to hear from a brother who has experienced that and seen it, and reminds us of the truth of that. What’s fascinating is this idea of fear. Because even as you’re experiencing and going through all that, there was this fear that was happening. Of course, you have trauma from growing up in war torn country and all of the different things that you faced, and how those fears can kind of play into our lives in such a way. I think, in ministry, for those of us who are pastors and ministry leaders, sometimes we can, as I said, minimize fears, kind of ignore them, try to pretend like everything’s cool. Or sometimes we can do the opposite. We can maximize those fears, make them bigger, give them more power than they deserve. Naeem, why do you think we struggle so much with our relationship to fear?

Naeem Fazal
Oh, man, that is a loaded question. It’s a good one. But I mean, if I could speak to people who are co-laborers, I’m saying, like pastors and leaders. I think part of it is what we’ve been taught about fear, like how to dismantle it. I think, early on in my faith, I learned that I just needed to believe more, have faith, and faith was going to be the answer to my fears. So if I was scared, if I was nervous, if I had anxiety, if I worried, if I had any of those things, I just needed to believe, trust, and have faith. Believe, trust, and have faith. So that was it. That was the solution. So, once I matured in my faith, in my belief in Jesus, in walking with Jesus, what I realized is that that faith is never and has never been the solution to fear in our lives. So, as ministry leaders, we feel bad, we feel guilty when we’re afraid. I mean, you don’t feel just one emotion. You feel several, like insecurity. So you’re like, I’m scared. I don’t have enough faith. I am a terrible leader. I’m supposed to be a pastor. I don’t even believe in this. What is wrong? I gotta get together. Why do I not trust? So now you have shame on top of fear, on top of disappointing people, on top of, okay, I gotta hide and fake it, because I want to fake it till I make it. So, you know what I’m saying? Because we are people who cannot have a bad day. We are pastors and leaders. Every day is the goodness of God, and God is good all the time. So, now you’ve got this theology, this idea, and it’s really because we’ve been malnourished in what the answer is to fear. In scriptures, it talks about, there’s this perfect love, and that perfect love casts out fear. That’s it. It is love. God’s love perfected in us casts out fear. Perfect love, this word, I think it’s in Greek, it says, teleioo, which is a completed love. It’s not growing anymore. It’s grown. God can’t look at us and go, You know what? I think I love you more today. No, we do that. He doesn’t have that moment. You know what I’m saying? So, in Scripture, it says, Okay, once you understand that God fully, completely loves you, and once that love begins to work in you and you become more loving, you’re going to cast out fear. So, now I know it’s a deeper kind of a thought, but I think the reason why leaders struggle is because we don’t understand that it’s always been love that’s the solution, not faith. Faith will fail because I’ll tell you what, on a good day, I believe anything. On a bad day, I want to leave the faith. How many people want to leave ministry? Shoot. I mean, how many? Then you got guilt and shame to go with that, and it’s never been. It’s just bad theology. So, when I wrote this book, Tomorrow Needs You, the thought and the spirit behind this book was a conversation that I had with my dad, and my dad tried to commit suicide. Failed attempt, and after that, we had a conversation, or several conversations, but in one of them, he said, No one needs me. No one needs me. I said, Dad, your grandkids need you. I need you. What do you mean? He’s like, no one’s gonna care if I die, no one cares if I’m gone, no one needs me. So he’s like, tomorrow, if I’m gone, no one’s gonna care. I’m irrelevant. So that’s why the book is called Tomorrow Needs You, because it is a lie of the enemy that tells you, hey, you’re such a failure. You don’t have enough faith. You can’t get it together. You still struggle with all this. I mean, come on. I mean, how long have you been doing this? I mean, the enemy will just keep on saying all kinds of things, especially to us who are on the front lines fighting this fight. Of course, he’s going to do that. He’s got a loudspeaker in our souls going, Hey, no one needs you. What you are doing does not matter. Do you see any fruit? Look at the people baptized. Look at the people you’ve been spending so much time with. Nothing’s happening in their lives. And that, my friend, is such a lie. I don’t know. I know it’s a long answer to a short question. But I can keep on going about this.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. So, Naeem, if we’re looking at this, of course, the lies of the enemy are pushing that fear into us, right? And continue to push that fear. We can do one of two things, well, probably a number of things, but there are two things that we often do. One is, we will let that fear just grow and grow and grow, and paralyze us almost, right? The other might be, we just try to pretend like it doesn’t exist, right? We’re like, okay, there’s this fear bubbling around, but let’s just put our heads down and plow ahead. And we almost pull our souls out of it and just kind of go through the motions of, we’re just going to make this happen. But you say that with this idea of love, how do we tap into that love in such a way that it helps us navigate fear? Because one of the things you write about in Tomorrow Needs You is the fact that fear does have a purpose. We just have to understand what the purpose is and not ignore it or let it get too big. So, how do we understand the purpose of fear, and allow love to help us move through the fear?

Naeem Fazal
Yeah, great question. So, in my book, I talk about it. You have to put fear on a leash, you know? So that’s the big thing. Then use that illustration, because when you think of a leash, you’ve got to figure out who’s on the end, which end of you’re on, right? Unfortunately, what happens is, fear is holding the leash, and it’s your neck on the line. Fear makes us, drags us, and takes us wherever it wants to take us, unless you do the opposite, and that is, you put fear on the leash. You’re holding it. You’re controlling it. So, you’re using fear to help you kind of smell out danger. Smell out some things. Smell out certain things. Discern a little bit, because that’s a healthy view of fear. You know? It’s like, Oh, hold on. What about this? Because it makes you stop and consider, fear does that. That’s why the term ‘fear of the Lord’ is so important, because it stops you and considers, oh, the awesomeness of this. Oh, wow. So I think fear is a great tool to use. Unfortunately, it’s been used by the enemy on us like a hammer and hammered us all the way. So that’s one thing. The other, man, is this idea of, how do you use love, right? How do you use love? So when I think of like, Oh, you just need to have a moment in worship, and you’re like, Oh my gosh, I love God. God loves me. Okay, I no longer fear. That’s not what I’m saying. I think you can have those moments, and those are great. But the depth of love in which I talk about, for example, I talk about how beauty is a solution to fear. In the book, I talk about beauty. I use beauty as the thing to use to overcome fear. For some people, I don’t think they understand the inseparable connection between beauty and love. So, when I think of beauty, I’m not thinking, Oh, beautiful sunset, oh, beautiful person, or attractive. I’m not talking about things that are attractive or good to look at. No, I’m talking next level. The next level beauty is that when you and I make something beautiful, when you and I create beauty, you cannot create beauty without love. You have to love it. You have to love it. So when God says, Hey, I’m going to make you in the womb. I’m going to build you. Or let’s go back to Genesis. When he creates us, what does he stop and say, Oh, that’s good. Oh, that’s good. Oh, that’s good. What’s he doing? He’s calling out beauty. So God, the Creator, creates, and how does he do it? He does it out of love. And so what I’m saying is that here’s what the big thing is. The big thing is that you and I have to look at what God did, look at what Jesus did, and we have to do what he did to conquer fear, like Jesus. For example, in Hebrews, it says that we have to look at Jesus, the author and the finisher of our faith. Then it says, for the joy set before Him, He endured the cross. So right there is a very practical like, that’s the premise of my book, that’s it. I’m like, listen, you want to fight fear? Here’s how you do it. You put a joy before you. You put a joy before you that will allow you to endure the cross. You put a joy before you. So Jesus saw a beautiful humanity. He set a beautiful humanity. He set God’s will, God the Father’s will, right before him. He set that before him, and that big thing, what he set before him, allowed him to conquer and dismantle the fear inside of him. I mean, that’s when he was like, You know what? I don’t want to drink this cup of suffering, but Your will be done. Your will be done. So, David says, I set the Lord before me. He’s at my right hand. I shall not be moved. So there’s constantly people in the Scriptures where what they do is they don’t go inside to look for faith or courage to overcome temptation, doubt, and anxiety. They put something so big in front of them, a beautiful vision. That’s what God does. God told Joshua, I’m going to give you this. Just be strong and courageous. I’m not taking away the fear. I’m putting something beautiful. I’m giving you a beautiful vision. I think, when people lack the tools to fight the fear, everyday fear, my question is, could we put something beautiful in front of you? Could you put something beautiful that’s bigger than you, that is connected to love? Are you building something? Do you have a vision that you’re building? Because if you do that, if you have a joy set before you, you can endure all these things. So that’s why I’m convinced that people have to remember, tomorrow needs them, but today is waiting. I mean, in my book, sections are like, Yesterday Has Forgotten You, which is a whole different conversation for pastors and leaders. Then today is waiting because tomorrow needs us. But today, we do the work that we need to do. We set a vision before us, and we go for it

Jason Daye
At Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders just like you. If you want to learn more about how you can qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. You don’t want to miss out on this opportunity. That’s PastorServe.org/freesession.

Naeem Fazal
I know I’m just going off here, but I get excited about it.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. So, Naeem, tell me this. In your experience, how have you kind of tapped into God, tapped into the spirit, to kind of formulate or receive that joy, that vision, that good peace that sets before you, that helps you move through fear because you have your eyes fixed on that? What are some ways that you experience that, right?

Naeem Fazal
Yeah, I’m telling you what. I think, for example. I mean, this is a great question, great question. I think part of it is living a life of risk with God when it comes to your relationship with God. So in the book, I talk about how I have a learning disability. I have dyslexia, and also dysgraphia, and, in fact, I also have discalculia, which you can Google those things. It’s a mess. All that to say is, I’m the least likely guy who should write a book. For my first book, I got some good advice, and I got a collaborator, a writer who worked with me, and she wrote all of it, and physically wrote all of it. I talked it out, and she heard my sermons, and we talked, and I wrote parts of it, and here and there, but she did the work. This time around, I was going to attempt to do it. So, when you say, Okay, how do you tap into God’s Spirit? So, I really felt a burden to write this. But, man, I had to take a risk. I had to take a risk. I think, sometimes, but I don’t want to fail, man. I mean, honestly, Jason. I mean, my first book was with Thomas Nelson, written by an amazing, talented writer. And this one, I was like, if I write this, people are gonna be like, what happened? What happened? The difference, clearly, the first book says, by Kitti Murray. Okay, this one, they’re like, Oh, man. For me, I was so insecure because I’m like, English is not my first language, and also what that means is, like, I can’t type worth a darn. Praise God for texting to talk, or whatever, talk-to-text. But, I mean, feeling exposed. I was like, I’m gonna write this thing, and they’re gonna be like, Wow, are these all the words you know? Is this it? So, I was like fighting the Holy Spirit. I was fighting. I was like, I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to do this. If I do this, they’ll know. They’ll know how incompetent I am. Like, they’ll know this. So I don’t know if I answered your question, man, but I was like God. But, I did not want to be this person who didn’t risk. I didn’t want to be this person who God was like, man, you should have gone for it. You should have done that, man.

Jason Daye
Yeah, and I think that’s important in ministry. Just like you said, this idea that we’ve got to be willing. I mean, God is a big God. God’s calling us to big things. We’ve got to be willing to step out, take that risk, and allow that to be that joy that is set before us, that helps drive us through the fear. As you said, fear of failure for you. Like, Oh, I’m gonna write this book, and the fear of people, you know, being “found out”. People are going to be like, Oh, who is this guy? But allowing that joy. God’s saying, Hey, this is a big thing, but I’m calling you into this. It’s a beautiful thing. You can make it through your fears. I’m drawing you through your fears. That’s awesome. One other really interesting story that you tell. I mean, there are tons of interesting stories you tell. You’re full of great stories, just so you know, brother. Yeah, it’s great. But one that, as I was reading, Naeem, I literally was like, what? It’s in your chapter about the idea of faith, right? And it’s when faith fails. But, you’re talking about people being controlled by fear, and you share a story about this couple that approaches you after a message at the church, oh, my goodness, this blew my mind. The lady was tearful and saying she’s sorry, and all of this. And you’re like trying to figure out what’s going on. You’re being a pastor in the moment. Like we all have, right? Someone comes up after a message, they’re going through something, getting ready to confess something, you’re doing your pastor duty, and then what she confesses is crazy. I mean, in so many ways. I mean literally, when I read it, I was not anticipating this, right? So I’m going to let you tell the story, Naeem. Walk us through this. This idea of fear, and how fear can drive us and control us to such a degree that we see.

Naeem Fazal
Yeah, do we want to tell the story? I mean, people will know, then. So, it’s okay. So, it was after a newcomer’s class. So it’s a luncheon kind of deal. Yeah, this couple comes up, I get into pastor mode. I’m like, I got this, I got this. And look at her husband, and he’s kind of like, I don’t know what to do. And, in my head, I’m like, Listen, I’m a professional. I got this, come on, just spill it. She was like, Well, I’ve just been struggling with this. And I’m like, Okay, what? And then, you know, like, yeah, okay, what’s going on? She was like, Well, I just think that you’re a sleeper terrorist, and that one day you’re gonna turn and take us all down. I’m like, what? They didn’t teach you that in pastoral training. I don’t know if I should say I’m sorry. Like, the way she said it, I was like, Are you wanting me to confess? Like, how do I say, I’m sorry you feel that way? I don’t even know to say, you know? I joke sometimes that I didn’t know if I should pray for her or punch her in the throat. I didn’t know what to do. Like, what do you do? Should I be offended, or not? And all of that. Yeah, that’s why I put that story in there, because I feel like, man, these are seasoned believers. They were seasoned believers on paper, and she was convinced. And the thing is, I mean, where did that fear come from? Maybe her own prejudice, but also from the enemy. Also from the enemy. So that’s why I write in the book about how distrust always, always justifies prejudice. So, you’ve got to understand how fear works. I mean, there are people that we fear, and conversations we fear, and it’s not even founded fear. It’s not. So, yeah, man. Yeah, crazy story. Crazy story. For me, Jason, and I know a lot of leaders cannot relate to this. But I mean, as an ex-Muslim starting a church in my house. And then we grew it, and, man, this was not the first time I’ve heard this story. My challenge was, for the first 10 years of starting Mosaic, because we’ve been going for 19, maybe even the first 15, was convincing people I was actually legit. And I’m like, I cannot believe this. Like, I can’t believe it. Yeah, I don’t know if you read the part in the book about that guy who was in the military, he was like, I can’t be in the same room with you. So, sometimes when I’ve hear pastors and leaders talk about their struggles, I’m like, Listen, listen, you’ve never had to convince someone you’re not a terrorist, Buddy. You got it easy.

Jason Daye
That’s right. I appreciate that. This has been a great conversation, and I so appreciate Tomorrow Needs You, and what you’ve written through there, and the idea of helping us move through those fears. And, as you said, fear does have a purpose, but don’t let fear be leading you around on a leash, right? And how the perfect love of God drives out all fear, and it’s just such a meaningful conversation. As we’re kind of winding this conversation down, you have the eyes and ears of pastors and ministry leaders who are leading on the front lines. I want to give you the opportunity. What words of encouragement do you have for your brothers and sisters who are serving?

Naeem Fazal
Oh, man, I would say, I mean, first of all, thank you. Thank you so much for staying in the fight and doing what you do. Because it’s a certain kind of person that does that. And I know that getting compliments or getting encouragement from people that are who you lead is one thing, but just knowing another person who struggles, who co-labors with you, knowing the struggle, just saying, Hey, listen, that was good work. This is good work. So I would say, please, please do not give up. Please don’t believe the lie that tomorrow doesn’t need you. In the first section of the book, I talk about how yesterday has forgotten you.  I really cannot tell you how many pastors and leaders, man, they’re still dating yesterday. You can’t be married to the future while you’re still dating the past. You just can’t. You can’t. And I know I struggle with that. I struggle with that. During COVID, I was watching The Office, again and again. I just kept on watching it. And I was eating the same chips every night. My son was like, You know what this is, Dad? I was like, What? He said, This is you coping with anxiety. This is you coping with anxiety. I’m like, Huh, I didn’t realize that. I did not realize that. I was like, You know what? You don’t know anything. Shut up. So, I just want to encourage leaders right now that if you’re coping with stuff, coping, I just want to tell you, coping is your soul saying, I need to live. Do something. Do something. So, I just want to say, if you’re coping and trying to do something, and sometimes coping can lead to bad habits, I just want to say, there’s something inside of you that wants to fight for life. That’s why you’re coping. That’s where you’re doing the struggle. So there’s so much potential in us, and it’s not because we’re amazing, we’re unique, special, and all that. But, man, we’ve got God’s Spirit, the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. I mean, with Easter just right here, celebrating that. What are we celebrating? We’re celebrating the unlimited potential that we possess because we are now the temple of the Holy Spirit. I mean, Paul said, Do you not realize? Do you not realize you’re the temple? You’re the Temple of that spirit, the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. So I want to encourage all the pastors and leaders, please, please do that. Please know. Please know. You’re never going to be good enough. You’re not going to be perfect enough. You’re not going to be talented enough. It’s not about being enough. It’s not, it’s not, not about that. It’s never been about being enough. It’s never been. Paul said it best. He said, I’ll tell you what, when he talked about weakness. And he’s like, I boast about my weakness because Christ’s power in me. My interpretation is basically this. He says, My weakness is so special because my weakness creates space for God’s Spirit to fill. If you don’t have any weakness, you don’t have space for God to fill because you’re complete. So if you have weakness, if you’ve got holes, if you got where I cannot figure this out. If you’ve got all that space. Perfect, that’s great, because his power is made perfect in weakness. So Paul says, I’m going to boast about it because I got more space now that God can fill. So the more weak we are, the more supernaturally strong we get. I know it’s strange. so just want to encourage them to keep going.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. Great word, brother. Naeem, thank you so much for hanging out with us. For those of you who are watching or listening, the link to Tomorrow Needs You, Naeem’s newest book, is going to be available in the toolkit that complements this episode. You can find that at PastorServe.org/network, and there you’ll find a lot of resources, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, which has insights and questions from our conversation to help you dig more deeply into this topic. So be sure to check that out. Brother, as I said, it’s a joy to have you with us. Thank you for making time to hang out with us here on FrontStage BackStage.

Naeem Fazal
Oh, of course. My honor, and thank you so much for having me.

Jason Daye
All right. God bless you, brother.

Jason Daye
Here at Pastor Serve, we hope you’re truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage BackStage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you find the show, so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend. And don’t forget our free toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.