From Burned Out to Beloved : Bethany Dearborn Hiser

Full-Text Transcript

As pastors and ministry leaders, how can understanding our own journeys better ensure that we are serving from a place of healing rather than exhaustion, burnout, or pain?

Jason Daye
In this episode, I’m joined by Bethany Dearborn Hiser. Bethany is the Director of Soul Care for Northwest Family Life. She’s a bilingual social worker, chaplain, and pastoral advocate who has served in a variety of ministry and social service settings. Her new book is entitled From Burned Out to Beloved: Soul Care for Wounded Healers. Together, Bethany and I examine the often overlooked impact on our own lives that comes as a result of exposure to the crises and difficulties of those we serve. Bethany shares insights on how we can care for our own souls to help us avoid or overcome burnout and be more effective in our ministry. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another insightful episode of FrontStage Backstage. I am your host, Jason Daye. Each and every week, I have the honor and privilege of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and we dive into a conversation all in an effort to help you and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy rhythms for sustainable life and leadership and to really just engage in what God has for you as you flourish in both your life and your leadership. We are proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network, and not only do we have a conversation every week, but our team creates an entire toolkit for you and your team at your local church to really dig in and understand more deeply the conversation or the topic that we’re discussing. You can find that toolkit for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. Now, in that toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, which has insights and questions for you to reflect on to really understand how this topic applies to your particular context. So be sure to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. Now, at Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside ministry leaders, and if you’d like to learn more about how you can receive a complimentary coaching session, you can find that information at PastorServe.org/freesession, so be sure to check that out as well. Now, if you’re joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and take a moment to drop your name and the name of your church in the comments below. We absolutely love getting to know our audience better, and we’ll be praying for you and your ministry. Whether you’re joining us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe or follow so you do not miss out on any of these great conversations. I’m excited to introduce this week’s guest. At this time, I’d like to welcome Bethany Dearborn Hizer to the show. Bethany, welcome.

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Thank you. Good to be here.

Jason Daye
It’s good to have you with us. Really looking forward to our conversation. I think it’s going to be very beneficial to our audience, and you talk about your life, your ministry, the way that you serve, and the work that you do in your new book, From Burned Out to Beloved. In that, you share with us that you really feel called to and passionate about the work that you do and that early on, you kind of believed that that passion and that calling would almost be enough to carry you through whatever you might face. So, Bethany, I would love for you to share just a little bit about what you do, about that calling, about what you realized about passion and really exhaustion, and how those things relate, if you could.

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Yeah. So what I do now is that I am the Director of Soul Care for an organization called Northwest Family Life, which is a network of therapists and a home for women that is primarily for women who’ve experienced domestic violence. So, I support the staff and the therapist, and I never thought I would be doing more soul care work. Actually, I was more on the front lines, which is maybe the work that you are alluding to. I would go into the jails and do jail chaplaincy, work with people on the street, in recovery and not in recovery from substances. I worked with a lot of migrant farm worker families and helped them navigate various systems. I did a lot of other social work by training but did more informal ministry with people on the margins or on the streets. I kind of thought that I knew what self-care was and soul care, and thought that I was fine, like I would always hear people talk about self-care. Exercise, eat well, and get sleep. I was like, I’m good, I’m good, I’m okay. It wasn’t until I started learning about secondary trauma that I realized how not okay I really was, and how much I was ingesting, I was taking in, not processing, not letting go, and how much it was impacting me and how really not okay I was, that I started to really believe in how I needed care, too. That I was providing care, but I really needed care for myself because I’m worth it and also so that I could be a better caregiver to those who I was walking alongside. So that’s the work that I get to do now, which is such a gift.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. So, you touched on a few things, and I’d like to dive into them in this conversation. When you brought up the secondary trauma, that you have secondary trauma, and for those who may not understand that concept, Bethany, can you walk us through that and then talk to us a little bit about how that applies to us as we’re serving others, as we’re ministering to others. How does that impact us?

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Sure, yeah, if primary trauma is a trauma that we experience to ourselves, that we are, that we witness or experience, secondary trauma is hearing about a trauma, is hearing about something that happened to somebody else. We know more and more about this, that this actually can cause similar symptoms to PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, and it can cause hypervigilance, a hard time sleeping, and reoccurring nightmares. It can cause the sense that you can never slow down, that it’s always up to you, as well as this feeling that of like putting things in black and white, or all-or-nothing thinking. There are all these different symptoms that I started reading through. I’m trying to think of a few others. Guilt. Guilt for doing anything for yourself. One that really struck me when I was learning about it was showing up, but exuding don’t talk to me. So, going to my little office in the domestic violence shelter that I worked for at the time, and being present, but really have no capacity to engage. So it’s almost like my tank was full, I was totally saturated. Sometimes, I’ve talked about a thermometer. Like, if you’re taking your temperature for a fever, and if you’re already really close to the red, it doesn’t take much to set you off into a fever. So if you’re already kind of up at the top, then it’s really hard to take in more. So I think for pastors, for caregivers, for ministry workers, this is part of the job. I share this example in the book that you know, firefighters go into a house, and they get soot on them. They get ash on them. It’s part of the job. We get exposed to difficult realities. Pastors attending funerals, attending wakes, pastors attending births, and processing life and death with people. It’s part of the job. So, also in my work now, I say, taking care of yourself and doing inner work is part of the job.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s helpful. This secondary trauma, as you said, as pastors and ministry leaders, we might be working with people who have addictions, and we’re experiencing that kind of vicariously through our work that we’re doing with them. Or we might have a family who’ve lost a child or something, and all those things impact us, but oftentimes, we don’t stop to consider the impact that they might have on us. So Bethany, help us understand some things that we can do for this healing and for this health by recognizing this secondary trauma. What are some ways that we cannot just recognize it but allow ourselves to become healthier as we recognize it?

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Yeah, I mean, learning from people that I’ve walked with in recovery, I’ve really taken a lens of recovery in my work. That we need to be in recovery. As I say, I’m in recovery as a codependent workaholic and my codependency was to my work. That I was not okay if people weren’t okay, and people I worked with were never okay. So I needed to be able to separate in a healthy way and say, I am me and this is my stuff going on, and to enter in empathetically and yet not be consumed by the stories of the people that I loved, and the stories that I was hearing. So this journey of recovery is first acknowledging that we’re not okay. That’s one of the first steps of AA and all the 12-step programs, is I’m not okay. Then it’s turning to our higher power and saying to God, I need your help. I need to walk this journey with you and it’s inviting other people into that. It’s seeking out support. So I, you know, encourage people to have their own support, their spiritual directors, or their therapists, so that they’re going to a network of support. Then also to unpack those inner beliefs that affect our drive. So that’s been what’s really been helpful for me, is looking at motivations. When I say yes to somebody, am I really doing it because I am feeling drawn to it and it’s the right response or is it because of my need to be needed, which is really humbling to do that work? Yet, I think it’s incredibly important. We want to be loving people. As pastors and ministry workers, we want to love people. Yet, sometimes if we’re moving too fast, if we’re not doing our inner work, then maybe we’re motivated by things that actually can hurt ourselves and hurt other people. So creating space for reflection, creating space for slowing down, rhythms of rest, I mean a lot of other things that you’ve talked about with other people on your podcast, these tools to recenter ourselves and to do our inner work. I can say more about that, but just if you want to.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s helpful, Bethany. One of the things that you write about in From Burned Out to Beloved, is this identity, and how you were finding that your identity was based really on helping others and that even your value was tied to how you’re serving others. I would imagine that, even if we don’t want to admit it, a lot of us in ministry wrestle with that same thing. So talk to us a little bit about how you kind of process through that and what is the danger of that misplaced identity.

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Yeah, such a good question. If we put our identity in what we do, then our worth depends on the people that we’re working with, or how successful we are in our work. It depends on the number of people that are coming into our church or that we’re helping, that we’re serving them. Especially working with people in recovery, if I want to change more than that person wanted for themselves, then it didn’t go well, right? I wasn’t walking with them where they were ready for what they were ready to do and the changes they were ready for. I was charging ahead because I needed that and because I needed to feel good for myself, which is a terrible thing. It’s very humbling to do this inner work, and obviously, because I care about their well-being, too. So it’s never black and white. It’s always this mix of motivations, like, yes, it’s so hard to see somebody suffering, and I need to partner with God in that, and not partner with my own guilt, shame, or sense of inadequacy. So rooting my identity as a beloved one no matter what happens, grounds me in source. Grounds me in affirmation. I mean, I talked in the book about this practice of welcoming prayer, and I actually just led it again to a group yesterday. This welcoming prayer of acknowledging what I’m feeling, allowing myself to feel it, welcoming God with me in it, and then letting go of our need for security, affection, and control. I think as we practice these spiritual practices they’re called, we root ourselves in our source of God’s love, we receive that for ourselves, and we’re not seeking that from the people we’re working with.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. One of the things that I really love in the book is, and we’re going to talk on this kind of identity piece a little bit here because you provide questions for reflection, like they’re built in. So in every chapter, there are these questions for reflection, and when you’re focusing on this identity piece, one of the things that you wrote about was, I think it was a class that you were in, and the question was around a plan B. If you weren’t doing the work you’re doing, what would the plan B be? So, that was a question that you invited the reader, invited me to wrestle with and to reflect upon myself. I thought this was powerful. I was thinking about myself in ministry, all my colleagues, others that I’ve been around in ministry, and anyone who’s serving others. Can you talk us through this exercise, this plan B exercise?

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Yeah. So I was sitting in this class by Laura van Dernoot Lipski. It was the self-care for social workers class that a friend had encouraged me to take. She’s the author of the book Trauma Stewardship, and that’s really what helped me become more aware of secondary trauma. She talked about this idea of plan B, and I started thinking, at that time, I was working at the shelter. I was working in a ministry. I was researching sex trafficking. I was, yeah, doing too much. She said, I give this example or encourage you to think about a plan B, and I’m not saying, say you’re working a domestic violence shelter and now you’re going to work at a shelter for victims of sex trafficking, and I felt so convicted because that was like, that was my exact example. She said, and she wasn’t coming from a Christian perspective, but she said, you need to think of a plan B, basically saying, you have worth, identity, and value outside of what you do, is what I took from that. It really shook me as well because I think I couldn’t imagine another way. I couldn’t imagine that I could do something different than helping other people. I think there’s a call, there’s a goodness, and there’s a partnering with God in that. Again, it’s not black and white. Yet I really needed to slow down and see that I have value no matter what. That was 14 years ago, and I have two little girls now, and this journey has continued. I’m a mom, and I need to know that I have value, not for changing the world, but for changing diapers sometimes, and no matter what. I mean, now they’re way out of diapers. But if we don’t ingest that and drink from our source of love, then we seek to fill that need in other ways. We seek to fill that belovedness. I mean, that’s why I called it From Burned Out to Beloved is that I had read other things, and people were talking about self-care, but really the foundation is being rooted in belovedness.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I absolutely love that. It’s the idea of, let’s say we aren’t doing what we’re doing now. So, if you’re a pastor and you’re watching this, if you weren’t a pastor, what would plan B be for you, right? The idea in that practice, working through that is, helping you understand that, let’s say, if I’m not a pastor today, let’s say my plan B would be that I’d be an artist, right? That’s kind of okay to process through that, even though it’s so hard for us who are in ministry because we’re not finding our value and our worth in what we do, as you’ve said, but in who we are in relation to God and that identity in Christ, which I think is so powerful and such a good exercise for us to process through and think through. As you said, Bethany, not setting aside our calling and our cooperation with God. We understand that, but just that mental exercise to kind of pull us away from identifying so closely with what we’re doing, how we’re serving, and all of those things. One thing that you touch on quite a bit in this conversation we have, but you do as well in the book, is this idea of our needs, and understanding how we’re serving. Again, these come from reflection questions, I think, in one of your chapters. But this idea of what need am I really trying to fulfill in my own life with how I’m serving others, or how I’m trying to fulfill the hopes and expectations of my community or those around me? Talk to us a little bit about this. You did a whole chapter on needs and desires. Help us walk through this a little bit as to how a better understanding of ourselves really helps us in our healing and in the care of our own souls.

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Yeah, I mean, I touched on this a little bit, but in terms of our need for security, affection, and control, if we are seeking to meet our need for affection in our work with ministry, that’s another reason we need to have other support. We need to be receiving that from other places because, obviously, there are countless stories of people who’ve sought to meet their needs in really extreme unhealthy ways with people they’ve served. So this slowly, again, I keep saying slowing down because if we’re moving too fast and we’re shoving what’s going on and our denial of what’s going on internally, then we have a hard time really reckoning with our needs, motivations, and desires. I bring this up in the book because I think a lot of people would say to me, Well, put other’s needs before your own, quoting Jesus, and trying to talk about it from a biblical perspective. Or lay down your life and all these things that are in our core and in our theology. So I would wrestle with that. I thought, actually, you know what, that example I gave is I sometimes actually was putting my need for esteem, affection, and pleasing somebody over my need for sacrifice. So I felt like I was being sacrificial because I was saying yes at 9 PM and running over to someone’s house to help them fill out this paperwork because they needed to turn in when, actually, when I got there, I was realizing, Oh, we could have done this tomorrow. If I had said, hey, could this wait? I’m really tired and I would show up better tomorrow. I mean, Frederick Bucha, and I think, has the story about he’d been praying for people speaking, and he, at the end of the day, recognizes I don’t have a lot of capacity anymore to keep doing this, so I’m not going to bring my best self to this appointment or to this meeting. Can we meet tomorrow? I just think that’s such a beautiful example of reckoning, Hey, actually, it’s loving for me to say that I’m not okay right now. I’m tired, I really want to bring you my best self, and I want to be present to you, so I’m going to say no, or not yet, and can we reschedule? Does that make sense that there’s an owning of our stuff, and it’s not weak, it’s not powerless, but it’s actually being more loving to say, I’m not going to put my need to be helpful, happy, and always saying yes to please somebody else? I’m going to actually sacrifice that need, and I’m going to be vulnerable right now and say I have a need for rest that’s really affecting me, and I want to be loving to you. So it’s a twist in some ways, but it was a really helpful reflection that I felt like the Holy Spirit led me in as I was writing this.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely, and I think, Bethany, that really applies so much in our ministry lives because oftentimes we do have this concept, as you said, this, deny yourself, all these things where we’re just going to spend ourselves completely, and we think that’s the ultimate way that we show love for others. Yet, if in spending ourselves, we’re not really serving others as best we can, then we’re doing a disservice at that point, right? So this idea even Jesus pulled away from the crowds. We see this example in his life. One of the things that you touched on, and I thought was helpful, and it might be helpful for our audience, is you talked about the difference between self-care and soul care, and how self-care and kind of what the Instagram posts are about self-care, and those types of things. In our minds, when we’re serving, we’re like, we don’t have time for that, or whatever. So help us process through this self-care versus soul care that some people might be resting with themselves.

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Yeah. I mean, if the soul is, in the Hebrew sense, the whole self, its body, mind, and spirit, it encompasses all of us. Self-care should encompass all of us, but it’s come to mean things that we do for ourselves, nice things that we do. It’s getting our nails done or going to get a massage, or the physical things that we might do that are not bad, but soul care, I would say, is addressing our whole being. It’s doing this inner work that we need to have these rhythms of rest. Sometimes I’d go to a self-care training when I was a social worker, we’d have to do these pies, and I tell this story in the book. Like, physical, emotional, and mental. Have you done one of those? Like you kind of categorize and fill up your pie chart, and I would always leave feeling inadequate. Until I started looking at my needs, motivations, my false beliefs, and my internal narratives of not feeling worth taking care of myself. When I was working with people in such crisis, how could I take care of myself? How could I do something nice myself? So I’d have to work through these inner narratives in order to make any changes. I would say that the work of soul care is addressing the inner things. A lot of people make New Year’s resolutions and then they don’t keep them. Why don’t we keep them? Because we haven’t addressed the barriers internally to making changes.

Jason Daye
Yeah, it’s good. Now, speaking of barriers, talk a little more about some of these barriers that we might put up in our lives when it comes to soul care. What are some of the things that kind of prevent us or keep us, hold us back from really leaning into caring for our own souls?

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Yeah. I mean, I’ve done workshops on this, and I’m trying to think even present day for myself. I mean, sometimes I talk about this labyrinth. I’m still on this journey with other people, but some of the false beliefs, or the internal narratives that I’ve mentioned are, that I can’t be okay unless other people are okay. It’s all up to me. If I can’t, no one will. Others’ feelings and needs are more important than mine. Sometimes, when I’ve led workshops on this, I’ve encouraged people to add “always” at the end because sometimes we might say, yeah, my kid’s need is right now more important than mine, and there’s validity, but if you say always, then you can kind of acknowledge the falsehood in that. Addressing these and saying, Okay, so now this is an inner belief that I have, and then bringing it to Jesus and doing some inner work and finding, recently, I’ve been really into internal family systems and so looking at where do these beliefs come from. These are parts of me. These are not necessarily all of me, but there’s a core self that I need to lead my whole self, and that’s a whole other topic or podcast interview. But that a part of me might believe that my worth is in what I do. That’s another one, right? My worth is in what I do. But I need to help that part of me be adopted into my core self and know that it has value no matter what.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s helpful. Bethany, whenever we are kind of processing through this or working through this, what have you found to be most helpful? Because there’s personal reflection, but then there’s also processing with others who are on the journey with you. What are some different ways that you have found to be helpful to actually process this? If someone watching or listening is like, I want to get into some of these deeper questions. I want to work through some of these because I resonate with a lot of what you’re saying, Bethany. What have you found to be most helpful?

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Oh, so many things. I mean, I think having my own spiritual director, we started having someone who had volunteered and came to our organization, the ministry I was working at, she would sit with anyone who wanted to, and that was really helpful. Learning about secondary trauma, as I mentioned, and doing my own inner work. The Genesis process I mentioned in the book, but it’s a relapse prevention program, and they have change groups for churches, trying to help churches become a safe place for hurting people is kind of their tagline for that, and inviting people in the church, especially, to do their own inner work and to acknowledge their, what I call socially accepted, or a lot of people call socially accepted addictions. So instead of just saying, oh, that’s for those who are addicted to substances, it’s saying, oh, I need to do my inner work. So the Genesis process has been a very helpful tool for me to walk through this myself, and have other people walk with me. So I was trained in it, and we had to do it ourselves, and then kind of workshopped it with other people. I would also say contemplative practices have been immensely valuable. I’m a doer. I’m a social worker by training. I like to make a difference and impact, and contemplative practices invite this slowing down and this abiding in God’s presence and letting go of productivity that has, I think, really been changing me. My worth is not in what I do. It’s not in even how well I productively read through a devotional or something. But Ignatian spirituality is also, I’ve done the spiritual exercises for everyday life and examine this tool of reflection at the end of the day, centering prayer, of setting aside time every day to be in stillness and come back to a sacred word in God’s presence. They’ve really helped me to slow down and let go of productivity and to really connect with God as my source and my foundation in all things, and to drink from this well that is available to me always. So the more that I’ve done that work, and I’ve realized, Oh, you asked about my job now or then, and I feel like my core calling in some ways is helping people know their belovedness no matter what, and I need to receive that myself in order to also offer that for other people.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. It’s really that well that sustains us in the work we do. It’s fascinating, Bethany, that there is this temptation for us to lean so deeply into our call, into our desire to serve others, that we get caught up in, as you said, that activity is such a degree that we’re not doing the contemplative, we’re not leaning into the work of the Spirit in our lives. Therefore, we’re kind of just running through this thing, that’s where we get exhausted, and where we get burned out. That’s where all those challenges happen. Yet we convince ourselves somehow, we’re doing the work, we’re doing the work, we’re doing the work, and that’s what we need to be doing. I would love to give you just a few moments, if you would, Bethany, just talking to pastors and other ministry leaders now, reflecting on your journey from burned out to beloved. What words would you like to say or encouragement would you have for brothers and sisters who are serving?

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Yeah, I mean, if I could comment first on what you just said. I think there’s a quote from somebody who says, I try to set aside an hour of time to pray every day, except for when I am really busy, and then I have two hours to pray. So I guess my encouragement with that is, for one, you are more than what you do. Yeah, to really create these rhythms of sustenance, of rest, and of connection with God as our source. That’s part of your job. I mean, I say this to the therapist I work with as well, and to ministry workers I say, schedule an appointment if you need it. Put it in your calendar and protect it. But also do this inner work because we can make those changes only so much as we really enact them internally and believe them, that we’re worth it. So I guess I would really encourage the practices that help ground, sustain, connect, and rhythms of rest, as well as seeking out support. I mean, I feel like a broken record, but whether it’s a spiritual director or a therapist, that should be part of your job to have that as part of your network of care. Because therapists have to go to a therapist. I think pastors should also have to have people. It’s such a lonely position sometimes for pastors. They’re in a position of leadership. They’re caring for all these people. Everyone looks to them to guide them, and they don’t, unless they seek it out, have peers, and have places that they’re receiving. There are all these great resources now, which I imagine you’ve shared, and this resource of saying you’re not alone. You’re not alone and you really need a companion in this. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Jesus invited and had companions in his ministry. So sometimes we have this illusion that we need to do it alone, or we need to figure it out by ourselves. But we really need each other. We’re we’re built that way. I just led this practice of inviting people to ground themselves like a tree and drink from their source of love, the living water, and then as trees also need each other. They communicate to each other. The more we know about that, it’s an embodied way of practicing that we can’t do this work alone, we need each other, and we need our source. So that’s, I guess, what my encouragement would be.

Jason Daye
I love it, Bethany. Great word. Great word. If people want to connect with you or learn more about the book, what’s the best way they can do that?

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
Yeah, I have a website. My name, BethanyDearbornHiser.com, and I also have a newsletter that I send out weekly through Substack and Soul Care for Wounded Healers. In that, I share different events I’m doing. I do a monthly soul care group for ministry workers, and also another monthly soul care group that’s more geared toward people working with people in trauma, like women who experience domestic violence. I do a contemplative practice group as well, where I lead some of these practices. So those are live events that people are welcome to join.

Jason Daye
That’s awesome. I love that. We will have links to your Substack. We’ll have links to your site, and your events that you do. We’ll also have a link to the book From Burned Out to Beloved, all in the toolkit for this episode. So if you’re at the gym, or if you’re driving down the road, you can go to PastorServe.org/network, and in there you’ll have all the links to everything you need, along with the entire toolkit for this episode to help you and the ministry leaders at your local church dig more deeply into this incredible conversation that Bethany and I just shared together. So be sure to check that out. Bethany, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you come along. I do want to say and I want to encourage people that this book is a resource for you to walk through, those reflection questions at the end of each chapter are an incredible way, Bethany, as I read through it, for you to really process through these things and this deeper working, this inner working, as you said. So if you guys just pick up this resource, it’s a great place to start. I highly encourage you to do that and work through those questions on your own, or maybe with your team at your church or in your ministry, and process through those because they’re incredibly, incredibly helpful. So thank you for such a great resource, Bethany.

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
You’re welcome. Thank you for having me, Jason.

Jason Daye
God bless you.

Bethany Dearborn Hiser
God bless you as well.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.