How Healthy Churches Multiply Disciple-Makers : Alice Matagora

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each and every week, I have the honor of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and we tackle a topic all in an effort to help you and ministry leaders just like you really thrive in both life and leadership. We’re proud to be a part of the PastorServe Network. Each week, we not only have a conversation, but we also create a toolkit that helps you dig more deeply into the conversation we have, and you can find that at PastorServe.org/network. Now, I’m really excited because Alice Matagora is joining me today. Alice oversees Leadership Development for The Navigators, and her most recent book is entitled How to Save the World. At this time, I’d like to welcome Alice to the show. Alice, welcome.

Alice Matagora
Hi. It’s good to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Jason Daye
Yeah, so good to have you, Alice. Thank you for making the time. Really, really love the book that you just put out, How to Save the World. Catchy title, right? Catchy title. I received this book, and I was like, Wow, that’s pretty bold, but it all makes sense.

Alice Matagora
You know, it was actually a placeholder title. And then my editor was like, Actually, I kind of really love the title, and it kind of really fits with what the book is about. And I’m like, okay, all right, okay, let’s go for it then.

Jason Daye
Absolutely, I like it. It’s pretty bold. But it literally is about how to save the world, because it’s about disciple-making. So, I would like to kick this off, because when the church often talks about discipleship, it talks about evangelism, right? How does disciple-making relate to those two big topics that we talk about in the church, right?

Alice Matagora
Oh my gosh. We’re starting off just with a quick and easy question, my goodness. Okay, so I think that in the church, discipleship has kind of become this catch-all phrase that encompasses anything from, like, maybe a small group Bible study, it could be mentoring, or it could be like small group accountability. But, when I’m writing about disciple-making, what I’m really talking about is this idea of helping somebody else learn to have a relationship with Jesus and to become more like Him, so that they can go ahead and help somebody else have a relationship with Jesus and then become more like Him. And I think sometimes the beautiful thing in this whole process of this relational kind of helping somebody become like Jesus and walk with Him, is that sometimes the people whom we are disciple-making, they don’t know Jesus, and so evangelism is part of this process. It could be a neighbor. It could be somebody in my son’s school, like another mom in my son’s school. It could be just so many different people in different walks of life. I think disciple-making captures believers, non-believers, all with this lens of helping somebody learn to walk with Jesus so that they can help somebody else learn to walk with Jesus until the rest of time, until the end of the earth.

Jason Daye
Yes, excellent. Love that, Alice. Now, in this book, as you were doing the research for this book, you didn’t just create something theoretical; you did a lot of research, and that shows up throughout the book. One of the things that I would love for you to kind of share with us a bit is this idea of where we are now. Now, your research was based on the US. So, where do we find ourselves in the US, in terms of disciple-making, if you could, just kind of what’s the lay of the land for us?

Alice Matagora
Yeah, so just to be clear, we, as The Navigators, commissioned the Barna Group to do this research. So I did not conduct the research personally. I just nerded out over the research afterwards. So when we’re looking at disciple-making and the state of the US church, it’s a bit of a sobering picture when it comes to this idea of disciple-making as I defined it. I think a lot of people don’t really want to know what discipleship is with regard to how I defined it. They’re kind of fuzzy on the definition. But when we’re looking at the big picture, really, I think it’s looking like only 30% of followers of Jesus in the US are making disciples who make disciples. Now that is a far cry from Jesus’s command to all of his followers, to his disciples. We see this in Matthew 28, his final words to His disciples. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 30% is a far cry from all followers of Jesus doing this work. So it’s a little bit sobering. There are little pieces of encouragement. As I said, I think a lot of people are fuzzy on definition, so they might be actually discipling, but they just don’t know that they’re discipling. And I think that there’s a reality that a lot of the 30% who are discipling, less than that 30% have actually been discipled. So people, perhaps, aren’t discipling because they have never experienced this kind of disciple-making relationship themselves, and it’s hard to do what you have never experienced for yourself.

Jason Daye
Absolutely. So, as you look at the data, did you begin to kind of dream about what it means to move that 30% closer to or inch it toward 100%? What are some of the things that stood out where we may have misstepped, or some things that we could lean into to help us create more disciple-makers in our local churches and local communities?

Alice Matagora
So, to help us get a better picture of what it means to be a disciple-maker, we had these five traits of a disciple-maker. And I feel like I’m going to botch it, but it’s like, knows and loves Jesus, loves His word, is in community, passes what they’ve learned along to somebody else, and then evangelizes. I think those are the five. So we see in the data that a lot of people they love Jesus. They love worshiping Him. They love to spend time with him. But when you take a deeper look into the data, you see they love spending time with Jesus through music, through service, through listening to people’s talks, but we’re kind of missing the mark on getting people into the Word of God for themselves. People are not spending time in the Word for themselves, having that personal like, I am personally hearing from Jesus for myself, and I am talking back to Him in prayer. I think people are talking back to them. They’re getting what maybe pastors, influencers, or whoever, somebody else is saying about it, and those are all great, great, great, fantastic resources. They help bolster and support what we are hearing from God Himself through the word. But I think that there’s something really critically missing in our personal interaction with Jesus. I mean, it’s like a love letter. Jesus, literally, that’s God talking to us through His Word. And so when we miss out on that, we miss out on the centrality of, and the threads and themes of disciple-making through the Scriptures. How it’s so often one generation passing on what they know to the next generation, who will pass it on to the next generation? I mean, you see that from Genesis. You see that throughout Jesus’s time with His disciples. And so I wonder if there’s some aspect of helping people get in the word to be convinced for themselves, because it is unavoidable God’s heart for generations, and the nations and disciple making in the word when we get into it. So, I think helping the everyday person, as ministry leaders and pastors, helping people love the word for themselves, which just builds that spirit conviction, that personal conviction. This isn’t just something that’s good for me to do, like brushing my teeth, eating my vegetables, or exercising, but it’s like this is something that God asks for me to do, and I cannot ignore that the more I’m in the Word. So, I think that’s one way that we get to the 100%.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends, just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Alice, on that real quickly. I’d like to note that I love that answer and I love that approach because that is honestly not something that most of us in ministry, as pastors of local churches or ministry leaders, that’s not really typically the first thing that will come to mind. If someone asks the average pastor, probably, how do you get more people in your church to become disciple-makers? Most of them will talk about a training program of some sort, or helping them tell their spiritual story, all these other things, but the idea of getting them into God’s word for themselves, digging in, and being exposed to the heart of God for others, being exposed to the reality of the mission of God, that Christianity and this relationship is not just for us alone. It’s a blessing for us, but something, as you said, to be passed on to the next, to the next, to the next. I think it’s fascinating that that is a key way that a local pastor can help their people have a heart posture for reaching others. One of the things, Alice, that you touched on in the book as well, is this idea of efficiency, and how, especially in US culture, we often don’t even realize it, but efficiency is just a part of the fabric of our culture, right? From the time we’re kids, we’re kind of trained, whether it’s in school, in business, workplace, marketplace, or whatever, this idea of efficiency is part of how we live, and efficiency doesn’t really translate so well to disciple-making, right? So, I’d love for you to touch on this idea of efficiency and what we need to be looking out for when it comes to this idea of disciple-making.

Alice Matagora
Yeah. I mean, I think, gosh, that’s always our temptation, right? To be pulled to bigger and better, and how can we maximize getting this into the world, when I’m not sure it’s so much like something that you just do, like stamp and then get into the world. But it’s really like a heart transformation process, and where there’s heart transformation, that just takes time. There’s heart change. There’s becoming more like Jesus. I can know more about Jesus through the programs, great Bible study resources, or great teaching. I can know more about Jesus, but unless I’m really spending time with him, I’m not necessarily being transformed. So, that was the case for me, like I was a Christian. I became a Christian in high school. I had my salvation, I knew all the answers, and I knew what you’re supposed to do, I knew what you weren’t supposed to do. But honestly, my roots, my spiritual roots, were so shallow because I didn’t have the relationship with Jesus for myself. It wasn’t until I met The Navigators and learned, Wow, you can have a relationship with Jesus in the same way that I can build a friendship with somebody here, where we talk to each other and we talk to each other about life. That is where I experienced the most deep transformation. It wasn’t through just disseminating information, but it was through regularly spending. You know, I was just in a prayer group this morning. And my husband usually goes to this prayer group, but I actually went to this prayer group this morning, and after praying, another mom was like, You remind me so much of your husband. My husband and I could not be any more different, like we’ve been married for we just passed 17 years. We could not be any more different, but it’s just as we have come to know and love each other and be in relationship with each other, we have become more like each other. We have each other’s mannerisms, and I think it’s just the same way with Jesus. I could read about my husband and know about him, but unless I actually have a relationship with him, I’m not turning into my hippie husband from Oregon. So, I think it’s the same as Jesus.

Jason Daye
Yeah, right. That’s good. Some of the things that came up that were a little surprising to me that I read in How to Save the World, one was around kind of this generational interest in disciple-making, and I don’t know why, but that kind of, I was like, What? And I had to go back and make sure I read it correctly, honestly, because I was surprised. So I would love for you to share a little bit about what the data says about how different generations look at this idea of disciple-making and their interest in it.

Alice Matagora
You know, that is really interesting. I was really interested to see that the interest in disciple-making tapers off with older generations. It’s actually the younger generations, like, I think Gen Z was the youngest that was surveyed. Gen Z is the most interested in passing on what they know about Jesus to the next generation. And then millennials are next, right? Then Gen X and then boomers. They really have the least interest in passing on what they know about walking with Jesus to the next generation, which does align with the data that like people aren’t being discipled because it’s the older. Usually, disciple-making relationships are with somebody older. Usually, it’s just somebody farther along in their walk, but that’s typically somebody older than somebody younger, and if they’re not interested really in disciple-making, then people aren’t being discipled. They aren’t experiencing it, and so you have this tapering off. I’m also wondering if the younger generations’ desire to make disciples also illuminates their desire to be discipled or to be mentored. They want to offer what they have not received for themselves. They are seeing this missing piece in their spirituality, and they see the importance of it.

Jason Daye
Absolutely. So, when I read that, I was like, This is great news for the church, right? Because the younger generations are hungrier or more interested in actually making disciples. And, as you said, it seems it could be reflective that they have a greater desire to have someone mentoring them, someone pouring into their life. I think that’s something that, on the local church level, we can really lean into, embrace, encourage, and fan that flame. That’s awesome. I was also interested a bit. There were some cultural attitudes that came up in the data toward disciple-making as well, which were pretty interesting. I think the data showed that those who are white were kind of least interested or the least engaged in disciple-making, whereas other cultures here in the US, minority cultures, had a greater level of interest. Alice, when you see stats like that come from this research, what does that tell us about the church, local church, and how we lean into disciple-making?

Alice Matagora
Yeah, I mean, I think that there are some cultural factors that play into this, like Western culture tends to be more individualistic, which isn’t better or worse, it’s just different, right? We see in the scriptures that there’s individualism and there’s collectivism, and then you see in these minority cultures, black culture, Hispanic, Asian, American culture, they tend to, their mother culture land tends to be more collectivistic. But if you also look at immigration patterns coming over into a new place where you are the minority, maybe you don’t know the language, maybe you’re just trying to make it, there is almost like you need each other to survive. It’s not just like spiritual survival, but it’s also physical survival. Like, how do we get the jobs? I just need somewhere to stay. I mean, I think as people immigrate over from these other countries that tend to be more collectivistic, there is also the reality that they would not, it’s a survival tactic, right? You know, you have to band together. There’s strength in numbers. There’s strength in solidarity, especially as you are making a life in a new world that just kind of lingers as generations go on. So I’m second-generation. My parents came over from Taiwan. They were the first to immigrate over. But I experienced that very strongly, even as second generation, just this idea of our community needs each other for moral support. They need each other for spiritual support. And then there are also, I think, cultural nuances and how we worship that are different, like how somebody from maybe a majority culture church would worship. It might be so different. It is so different from how somebody from like an African background culture would worship, and so we tend to want to worship it where it feels most like home. So I think especially that where it feels more like home. There’s the cultural aspect, but then there’s also the survival as minorities and majority culture spaces aspect that lends itself to here, let me take you under my wing and let me show you how I worship here, how we worship here, just how we walk with Jesus, and how it might be different from those around us here in this space.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. Alice, as you were writing the book, as you were digging through all the data and all the research, what were some of the things that either maybe surprised you the most, or maybe it was like aligned with what you were feeling in your gut, but you didn’t know for sure if the data would back it up? What were some things around disciple-making that really were like “Aha” moments for you?

Alice Matagora
Yeah, I think that there is a real vulnerability to disciple-making, to this one-on-one initiating with somebody. I think that we’ve become a little more sensitive as a culture to this fear of rejection, or feeling like people don’t want what I have to offer. I’m not a, you know, I’m like, firmly between millennial and Gen X, but when I think about college students or younger, and I don’t know, I can be like, What would they want to learn from me? And there’s a summer that I spent with a bunch of college students, and a younger woman was like, We want to learn everything from you. And I wonder if that’s what we see in the data with boomers not being interested. Maybe there’s this fear of rejection, or the vulnerability of, what if I offer something and nobody wants it, so I’m just not going to offer it at all. I think the desire is that people want to be discipled. They want to be, but maybe we are just holding back because we believe that other people don’t want what we have to offer. I think that our technological advances, being more on social media, I think that has played a role in us being a little more sensitive to rejection and a little more hesitant. I mean, it’s like asking somebody out on a date. That’s how I feel whenever I ask somebody if they want to be discipled or if they want to disciple me. It’s like asking somebody out on a date, and if we can avoid the pain of that, then I think a lot of us would. So I was really surprised by that. It’s not that people don’t want to. I mean, I think the time factor, they don’t have the time. That’s no surprise at all. I’m not surprised that the data illuminated, like, where would I fit this into my life? But really, they want to, they just don’t know how to, and they don’t know if somebody else would want what they would have to offer. I’m like, well, doesn’t hurt to offer it. Now, I’m in this ministry work. So, this is what I do. Offer and rejected for a living, right? But, for the everyday person, that might be, and I’m sure pastors can relate with that, and ministry leaders can relate with that. But like for the everyday person, yeah, I think that there’s a real vulnerability to it. You just need the exposure to being rejected more. You’ll be alright.

Jason Daye
Yeah, the more you’re rejected, the better off you are.

Alice Matagora
Yeah, the more you get used to it.

Jason Daye
At PastorServe, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders just like you. If you want to learn more about how you can qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. You don’t want to miss out on this opportunity. That’s PastorServe.org/freesession.

Jason Daye
Alright, Alice, that’s awesome. So we touched on this a little bit, but I’d really like to lean into this now. This thinking about local churches, pastors, and leaders on the local level, they have a desire to see their people. I’ve never met a pastor yet who doesn’t have a desire to see their people engaged in disciple-making, engaged in having spiritual conversations with others. We talked about one little piece earlier, you mentioned that helping people get into scripture for themselves, and really seeing the heart of God, personally experiencing the heart of God, and digging in is one way to help people kind of move along the path toward disciple-making. But what other things would you, if you’re sitting down with a local church pastor, what other things would you share with them, some thoughts, or some ideas that relate to helping their people embrace kind of a natural life of disciple-making?

Alice Matagora
Yeah, I think modeling goes a long way. Are pastors and ministry leaders talking about how they are being discipled, how somebody else is investing in their lives? Are they talking about regularly how they are investing in somebody else’s life? We need to be hearing it from the pulpit. We need to be hearing it. Just in our community groups, creating these cultures where it’s more normal than not to be making disciples. And that’s the culture that I entered into when I first met The Navigators, which is a disciple-making ministry in college. It was just normal. People made disciples. And so I felt like, oh, I should make disciples. I mean, it’s not like it was peer-pressured or anything, but it’s like, okay, yeah. It’s like, you memorize Scripture. Scripture memory is good. You read the Bible, you pray, you disciple somebody, and you don’t have to be the expert. You just have to start somewhere. You just have to be one step ahead of the next person. So, I think there’s the modeling and seeing our leaders. Whether it’s Bible study leaders, pastors, ministry leaders, or coordinators, they are being discipled, and they are discipling themselves. But, I think also offering some real simple tools and perspective. You don’t have to be the expert, you don’t have to know everything, or have a theological degree to disciple somebody. You just need to know a little bit more than the next person. And maybe it’s one week you’re learning from the person who’s discipling you, and then the next week you’re sharing it right with the person who you’re discipling. And maybe it’s that simple. That’s all discipleship is. And we all start somewhere. I started as a college student. I wasn’t great at it, but I started, and I was a couple of steps ahead of the people whom I was discipling, and that was enough for that season.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s super helpful. Alice, what other things from the data, from the research, from your writing this book really stood out to you around this idea of disciple-making that you’d really love followers of Christ, pastors, and ministry leaders to truly take into consideration and to embrace?

Alice Matagora
I think having these spaces dedicated to people who want to all be disciple-making is so crucial. It’s different than a regular community group, regular small group, or a regular Bible study. But really, I’m thinking about these almost disciple-making pods. Where, okay, we’re all in this group together. We all want to commit our lives to making disciples. I want the specific accountability here. I think that would just go such a long way in multiplying this vision of disciple-making out because the reality is that when people aren’t in these disciple-making communities, it is so much harder to remain intentional and committed with your life as an everyday person, to keep disciple-making. So, I think it’s almost like a disciple-making support group where you just all get together, you lament, you celebrate, and you keep each other accountable, but you’re really gathering together with a specific vision and purpose that we all want to make disciples. Keep me accountable. Make sure I follow through on what I say I want to do, and if I have not done it, then keep me accountable the next time we gather together. I think that has proven to be one of the biggest markers of success for people who want to keep disciple-making is having these disciple-making groups.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s awesome. I love that suggestion. Alice, in the very beginning of this conversation, or toward the beginning of this conversation, you were sharing a little bit about people who are engaged in disciple-making right now. So about 30% in the US are actively engaged. And yet, as you made clear, this was the final commandment of Jesus. Go and make disciples. I’ve always wondered about this. I’d love to hear your insight. Oftentimes, we’ll do a spiritual gift assessment in our local churches. And evangelism is one of them. And so certain people will score high on evangelism. The majority of people don’t score high on evangelism because it’s scary, or whatever. And then it seems like the thought is, okay, those who are high on evangelism, they’re the ones who are going to go make disciples. And I’m high on acts of service, so I’m going to go clean up the community center or whatever, right? So we kind of put ourselves in these little buckets. Talk to us a little bit about just a proper, I guess, understanding of what it means for us to be, not only disciples of Jesus, but how that relates to us as disciple-makers.

Alice Matagora
Okay, yeah, I think that if our main goal as followers of Jesus, as disciples of Jesus, is to become like Him, then it’s just undeniable from the scriptures that one of the things that Jesus gave his life to, the threads throughout all of the Gospels, was not the miracles. It was not the evangelistic outreach opportunities. It wasn’t the feeding the 5,000 or the healing of diseases. I mean, he did those things. He did those things, but really, the majority of his time was spent with these 12 guys and these women who followed along, teaching them the commands of God. Teaching them how to live, teaching them how to have a right Kingdom perspective, how to walk with God, have a relationship with him, and then how to do the work themselves. That was like, Jesus, he would say no, but to different opportunities and needs that came up. But he always had time for his disciples, from the very beginning all the way to the very end, the end of his life; that is the thread that we see. So, when we’re looking at well, I don’t have the gift of evangelism. I’m not an apostle. This is just not me. If you’re a follower of Jesus and a disciple, then you are hoping to seek to live like Jesus did, and Jesus gave his life to investing in the next generation so that they could do the same to the ends of the earth for the rest of all time. That’s what I would say about that. That might be oversimplifying it. But I’m just like, well, just do what Jesus did.

Jason Daye
Yeah, no, I think that’s excellent. I think it’s excellent. Alice, this has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much. I have absolutely enjoyed your book, How to Save the World. The focus on disciple-making is so important. And for those of you who are watching or listening, I’ve got to tell you, this book is very accessible. It’s got some great research. At the end of each chapter, it has some exercises, some questions to dig into and really see how that information applies to you, applies to your context. So super, super helpful book. Again, it’s not just theoretical. It’s got data, it’s got scripture, and then it’s got application. So, it’s a beautiful book, Alice. So, I encourage you guys to check that out. As we’re winding down, Alice, I want to give you an opportunity. You have the eyes and ears of pastors and ministry leaders, brothers and sisters, on the front lines of ministry. What words of encouragement would you like to leave with them?

Alice Matagora
Oh, I just say, keep leading and loving like Jesus did. Keep leading your flock to the heart of the Father. Keep developing them to be more like Jesus. Keep caring for their needs as a shepherd, as our good shepherd cares for our needs. You are doing good, important, and spiritual work. I mean, the hope is always the salvation of the ends of the earth. That’s the end goal of why we do anything that we do. So keep doing your good work.

Jason Daye
Amen. Good word, Alice. Thank you so much. For those of you listening or watching, don’t forget you can get the toolkit that complements my conversation with Alice at PastorServe.org/network. You can find the toolkit there for this episode and every episode, and there are a ton of different resources, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. It pulls insights out of our conversation together today, and also provides some questions for you and your local ministry team to process through, to wrestle through, and really look at this idea of disciple-making and how it applies to your particular context. So be sure to check that out. There will also be links to Alice’s book, How to Save the World, as well as to her social media, so you can connect with her directly, and be sure to check that out. Great resource for you. Alice, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much for making time.

Alice Matagora
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jason Daye
All right. God bless you.

Jason Daye
Here at PastorServe, we hope you’re truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage BackStage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you find the show, so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend, and don’t forget our free toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.