Leading Through the Storms of Ministry : Geoffrey Dudley

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each and every week, I have the privilege and honor of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and we dive into a topic all in an effort to help you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you really thrive in both life and leadership. If you are joining us today, I encourage you to subscribe or follow so you do not miss out on any of these great conversations. This week, I’m really excited to be joined by Bishop Geoffrey Dudley. Geoffrey is the Founding and Senior Pastor of New Life in Christ Church, which is one of the fastest-growing churches in the Metro East area of Saint Louis, Missouri.  Now, Geoffrey has been in ministry since he was a teenager, and he is a retired Air Force Chaplain and Lieutenant Colonel. His most recent book is entitled, Leading Through Storms. Geoffrey, welcome to the show, brother.

Geoffrey Dudley
Well, Jason, thank you so much for having me. Wow, it’s an honor to be with you and to be with those who are watching and listening to hear my story.

Jason Daye
Yeah, and your story is an incredible story, brother, and something that I certainly appreciate is your openness and even your vulnerability to talk about some of those challenges that all of us have in ministry, right? All of us experience as we are serving. But you are open to share, and you wrote about this in your book, Leading Through Storms. Very open and very vulnerable about some of the challenges that you face and how Christ has helped you navigate those challenges. I would love to just kind of kick off our conversation, if you could share just a little bit about your background, obviously your service. But then, as you retired, entering into local church ministry, and just give us a bit of a framework for the world that you’re coming from, Geoffrey.

Geoffrey Dudley
I appreciate the opportunity to give a little bit of background about myself. I’m from North Carolina. That’s God’s country, and so I feel so bad for those of you who are not from North Carolina, but we’ll help you. So I’m originally from North Carolina. I went to UNCG, and from there into the Air Force, and I always wanted to be a chaplain. My brothers served in the Navy and the Marines, and one in the Air Force, and they said this thing to me. They said, You know, because I was a young boy preacher, in my tradition, when you say you’re called to preach, then the pastor puts you up to preach the next Sunday. Almost literally, I’m not kidding. But at any rate, I’m 13, fast forward, and I remember them saying, Geoff, you know the chaplain. This is a preacher who’s in the military, you can talk to him, and he won’t tell anybody. Jason, that rang with me. That rang so deep with me. From teen age, I kept that in my heart, went through became an officer. Switched from being the officer that I was, because I was a line officer, support officer, to a chaplain. Then, fast forward, and doing, I don’t know who said this, but they said, If you love your job, you’ll never work a day in your life. That’s what the Air Force chaplaincy was for me. 21 and a half years, then I transitioned and retired here in the Midwest, now in the St. Louis metropolitan area on the east side of the river, and planted the church. Because there was a congregation that was a part of the base, some of them followed, and we planted, and God breathed on it. It’s all God, all God, because I know who God is working with. So, therein lies this awesome military experience, a successful military experience as a chaplain, all of those pieces, and then planted the church. It booms. Didn’t bust, but there were some definite challenges.

Jason Daye
Yeah, thank you for sharing. So, talk to us a little bit about some of those challenges because some of the ones that you write about in Leading Through Storms are some of the specific things I’d like to lean into a little bit, that many of us in ministry have experienced, are those times where, I think you said it in the book, some people were jumping ship. I think it’s a phrase that you used, which can be hard as a pastor, as a ministry leader who’s pouring their lives into people. Talk to us a little bit about that experience in those times, and how Christ led you to kind of navigate those types of experiences.

Geoffrey Dudley
I think I said this to a young pastor who, I will not call his name, but he has a completely thriving international ministry that is completely blowing up. They had a challenge. He posted it on Instagram. I know him personally. I texted him, and I said to him, Now you’re about to find out what church you really have. You’ve got 1000s of people, but now you’re about to find out what your church is really about. So when I look at this, things are growing, things are going well, and then there were challenges. There was a split. Not a split, a splinter. When I refer to jumping ship, I refer to that as well as being canceled. The thing that we talk about is being canceled, and I talk about this in the book. I don’t know, as a pastor, nothing is more difficult, I think, than when people say, Pastor, Bishop, whatever the tradition is, brother, Jason, I think we’re gonna go somewhere else. I don’t know about you.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I agree. It hurts, yep.

Geoffrey Dudley
You go and you turn inward. What did I do? What can I do? You don’t try to keep them because then you are sowing in cancer in your ministry, and you struggle through that. As a result of that, that really impacted me. One of the things, and you listen to me and say, Well, what went down? What went down? Come on now. A storm. More than one. We were in construction, and the bank pulled out, and at the same time, this particular, actually, my executive pastor, pulled out, and at the same time, the youth pastor, and at the same time, the worship pastor, all within about 18 months to 24 months.

Jason Daye
So, Geoffrey, as that happened as humans, as you said, it hurts, right? How did you begin to process that? And what were you experiencing emotionally, mentally, what was going on in your life at that time?

Geoffrey Dudley
I had an executive coach, and coming from the context of a chaplain, I had a counselor because I know some traditions may not be as open to therapy and those kinds of pieces, but because I was a chaplain, I was, because that’s what I did. So, I was opening for myself, and so therapy, an executive coach, prayer partners, one in particular, another pastor who’s originally from Liberia, who came to America with a suitcase full of faith, and now he has hundreds of churches all over the World. That’s the kind of guy you want to pray for you.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s right.

Geoffrey Dudley
That’s the kind of guy you want to have pray for you. So, I’m calling him. Prayer. My covering is praying with me, and those are the things that I was doing. But you asked, How did I feel? I was really down, and it was hard for me to hold it together, and you would have never known that, because I think as pastors and ministry leaders, we click on the light because we’re on stage, and then there’s an expectation that is projected on us. You’re fine. You’re telling everybody else about faith. You’re telling everybody else about how God will. But deep within your like, will you, God? And a lot of those self-evaluations, coulda, woulda, shoulda going on, and really trying to pull it all together.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends, just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things, Geoffrey, that I love that you shared is that you had some key supportive relationships in your life, as far as a counselor, as far as a coach, as far as some prayer partners, and close friends that you could be real with and open with. I think that’s so key for us in ministry because so often we isolate ourselves, and when we isolate ourselves and we go through these very discouraging seasons, it can just wreak havoc on our lives. So, talk to me a little bit more, Geoffrey, if you could, about how you see those relationships, that kind of support structure around you in your life in ministry, and the value that they kind of play in you being an effective shepherd, an effective pastor, and an effective leader.

Geoffrey Dudley
It’s hard to put a value on it. Let me say this to those who, when I listed those things, and your ministry, nor your own cash flow, could support those things. You can find someone. I remember, and I’ll just put this out here, because when they read the book, they’ll see this. We were in construction. The bank pulled out. We were all over everywhere trying to find a bank to come in. It’s hard to grow a church with red iron in the air, with half of the campus not done. That’s hard. I remember that I had gone and hired an executive coach, and I was talking to him. An executive coach is very different than a counselor. Very different, right? The two are not the same. But, Jason. I was so down. We were in construction. My wife was completely done with this whole idea of we’re gonna make it, we’re gonna make it, we’re gonna make it. She’s like, when are we ever not going to be in construction? When are we ever going to do those things? We had a disagreement, and I flew that day to a friend, a seminary buddy, whose church is three times my church. I’m just a large church. The church that I pastor is a large church. This is a whole mega situation. I stood at the window, and I was ready to take the leap, even though I had all of those things around me. Because in my mind, as a leader, in my mind, I wasn’t worried about my eternal life. I wasn’t worried about that. All I could think of was solve the problem. Got a money problem, got a construction thing. There’s a key man insurance policy on your life. If you are out, the policy will pay. Construction will be completed. The church would move on. That’s all I could think about. Solutions. I mean, I think we’re so, leaders are outcome and solution-driven people, vision-driven people. I will never, ever forget it. I’m standing there, I’m thinking about, what am I going to preach to this mega situation? I’ve never had an opportunity in a mega situation. So, I’m sure the preachers who are listening, all of this is going through your head. I’m also nervous. It’s a seminary buddy whose ministry is just completely fabulous. That’s going through my head. Construction going through my head. Banks not giving us a loan going through my head. Solve the problem going through my head. Argument with wife going through my head. And my coach called me, and I have been trying to call him for strategy, not for counseling, but for strategy, because I’m going to solve the problem. He said something to me that resonates to this day. He said, If you do that, he didn’t know. He said, But if you do that, you will never know how God is going to bring you out. Resonates today. Full circle, the executive pastor, as recently as this year, has now taken that church and says we’re going to come under your cover.

Jason Daye
Oh, wow, yeah, talk about restoration, right?

Geoffrey Dudley
You would never know how God was going to bring you back. So, I say that to those who are, whatever you’re up against, they said, Well, Bishop, mine isn’t quite like that, but whatever it is, the pressure of what we do and the weight of what we do. This past Sunday, we were doing this series called Why Church that has this multi-generational panel. We’re asking questions. First question, why should I go to church? Why is there a church, period? What does this place do that no other place can do? My answer was, we connect you to the one who gives you eternal life. Nobody else can do that. That’s weighty. That’s weighty. So, to those who are watching and listening, that weight, if you’re not careful, you will pull to yourself.

Jason Daye
Oh yeah, yep.

Geoffrey Dudley
And it’s not your house. He already died for it. That resonated with me. That had to really get down on the inside.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that is so key, because, as you said, we do oftentimes put greater expectations on ourselves than God is ever putting on us, right? So, as you processed through that, obviously, everything didn’t just change overnight, right? You’re still dealing with what you’re dealing with, right? You’re still facing those challenges. So, Geoffrey, what did God teach you as you began to navigate those challenges that helped you, as you say, not only weather the storm, but as you write about, lead your people, the people God entrusted to you, through those types of storms. Because it’s one thing for us to try to weather them. It’s a whole other thing when we have a responsibility to help lead others. So what did God teach you, brother?

Geoffrey Dudley
God taught me a lot of things that the scope of these podcasts can’t handle.

Jason Daye
I’m sure, man.

Geoffrey Dudley
So, let’s take a couple. Let’s take two or three. One, is that it’s his church. It’s His church, and he already died for it. I don’t have to, and he’s going to take care of it. On this rock, I’ll build my church, and the very gates of hell will not prevail. Secondly, I needed to take more time for myself. I’m learning that now. We’re past those storms. We have other things we’re dealing with. We just got hit with a tornado. I’m in the Midwest. So, we got stuff we got to do. It blew the steeple off the church and so on and so forth. I look at that and I’m like, that ain’t nothing, really. But it’s his church. And he taught me that, and that he’s got it. Another is to take time for myself and not feel guilty about it. I’m currently learning that.

Jason Daye
What does that look like for you, Geoffrey, to take time for yourself?

Geoffrey Dudley
Actually take a day off. Monday is my day off. Actually take it. Actually take it and not feel guilty to see a call and then just say, Not right now.

Jason Daye
Yeah, it’s hard.

Geoffrey Dudley
Writing a book was cathartic for me. It was very cathartic. So, to be more reflective would be a third thing. To be more reflective. I’m naturally a reflective person. But to really just take those kinds of things in. To trust my team would be the fourth thing. To trust my team, the team that is around me. There are some on my team that have been with me since the beginning of the Church, which is a very valuable thing. Everybody can’t say that all right, right? So, to trust my team, the board, the staff, who are saying, Bishop, you got it. We got it. Then the fifth thing I would just say that I am looking at taking a sabbatical. I have never, and here’s the thing, Jacon, and we can move on. The business manager of the church said, It’s been in your contract since the beginning. I’m not kidding. I had never even read the contract. Okay, we’re gonna plant the church. We’re gonna do this, we’re gonna do that, we’ll do this. Okay, you’re paying me. Okay, fine, you see what I’m saying. That kind of thing. So, when she told me that, because I applied for this grant, Lily Foundation, to get to go on a sabbatical, and stuff. She said, You know, you could have done this a long time ago. And I’m not kidding you, she showed me. I never even read it to that detail, and I think pastors who are listening and watching now can relate to that. You are so here with what you believe God is telling you to do, and so that’s where I was.

Jason Daye
At Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders just like you. If you want to learn more about how you can qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches. Please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. You don’t want to miss out on this opportunity. That’s PastorServe.org/freesession.

Jason Daye
Yeah. Now, that’s good. That’s helpful. I think those are all great things to kind of think about on how we can take time for ourselves, and I love the fact, Geoffrey, that you’re taking a sabbatical.

Geoffrey Dudley
Well, let’s hope I get the grant.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s right. Well, regardless of whether you get the grant or not, you just tell your business manager, Hey, it’s in my contract. So love you guys. Yeah, so that idea of taking that sabbatical and taking that time away. When you said taking a day off and really taking it off, I’m sure everyone watching or listening who’s in ministry knows exactly what you mean by that, because we all tend to have trouble setting time aside, and not being, overcoming that temptation to respond to that text or to pick up that call or to kind of, hey, I’ve got a little bit of time to jump on, check the emails, and respond. Being able to be disciplined to say, No, I’m carving this time out. I need this time. Refreshment for my soul is so key. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. One thing I want to say. You’ve been so open and honest and vulnerable, not only in this conversation, but throughout your book, Leading Through Storms. I appreciate that so much because, as you alluded to earlier, many times when we’re in ministry, we feel like that light gets turned on and boom, we’ve got to look like we’ve got it all together. But you have found this place where you’re willing to talk about your own struggles and your own challenges. Share with us a little bit about how easy that was for you. How did God take you to that place?

Geoffrey Dudley
Not easy.

Jason Daye
Right, right, yeah. How did you get there to be open? Because I think that’s something that many people in ministry wrestle with. Like, how vulnerable are we willing to be? How open are we willing to be? And what can God do with that, right?

Geoffrey Dudley
I came up in the Pentecostal Holiness Tradition, to which I owe my faith and salvation. No shade. That tradition, though, can put you in a place of perfection, and you need to get saved every week kind of piece, and so to break through that was a challenge. I think what helped me was my education. I have six degrees, many of those have to do with counseling and so on and so forth. So that helped me to really be reflective and think. I think the other things that helped me. I remember my lead elder, and I was talking to him about some of the things I was saying, and he encouraged me. He said, Bishop, I think it will help people. The other thing that helped that God used is I have two adult kids, both in ministry, both seminary graduates, and my daughter, who’s a graduate of Bethel, with marriage and family, really encouraged me to be open in saying, Hey, Dad, there’s a generation out there that’s not your generation. Reality TV is their world. You being that way will help them draw closer to Christ. Then I found that what God did was to resonate within me this: find a biblical character that I didn’t empty out. So, then why do you think you were different?

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s real good.

Geoffrey Dudley
Why do you think you’re different? I use everybody. I ring them out. Your life is mine. I get to use it for other people. That really resonated.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good, Geoffrey. What’s so fascinating about that is that at the same time, God is saying, Your life is devoted to me. You know what I mean? And is being used for My glory and for the advancement of the kingdom. At that same time, he’s also reminding you, as you shared, that you need to be refreshed. You need to be refueled and refilled. So, it’s not that God’s like ringing you out and then casting you aside.

Geoffrey Dudley
Yeah, exactly. Throwing you away. No.

Jason Daye
Exactly. Which, I love how you’ve modeled that, and I’m sure how you’re modeling that for your team, they’re your church. The idea that, yes, we do sacrifice, we do give, because we’re ca,lled to, but Jesus just continues to desire to fill us up more and more and more so that we’re not empty.

Geoffrey Dudley
He went to the mountain. He went to the mountain and prayed. He went to the mountain and prayed. He went to the mountain and prayed. That’s what I’m learning. And I don’t want, I don’t, I’m not trying to be all that. Trust me, those who are watching and listening, I will just tell you, I am learning that part. My daughter is really helping me in that part. We’re doing this whole month. We train our leaders every month. We call it Leadership Forum, and we’re going through this book that she actually brought to the table. And I wish I could think of the title right now, but it’s this book that really talks about how to take Sabbaths. How you’ve got to get there. You’ve got to lead from that place, and not an empty place. So, I’m coming to terms with those pieces right now. I still feel guilty on Monday. But I’m getting a better handle on that.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love it, brother. Absolutely love it. It’s been a great conversation. As we’re winding down, I would love to give you the opportunity, Geoffrey, just to share. You’ve got the eyes and ears of brothers and sisters serving in ministry. What words or what encouragement would you have for those who are serving?

Geoffrey Dudley
Find the thing. Find your “why”. Your unique “why. What is it? And I know it’s ministry. You can give me that. Don’t go up here. What is the specific thing you believe God has called you to do in the life that he’s given you to do? Mine is, change lives. I can put it in a sentence. Find that. Put it in a sentence. Get it in a sentence and then let that be your North Star. That’s what I would say. And then I would say, Buy my book.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s good, Geoffrey. And on that note…

Geoffrey Dudley
If you would do that, too, that would help me out a lot.

Jason Daye
Yeah, exactly, exactly. It’s a great book, Leading Through Storms. Fantastic book here. For those of you who are watching and listening along, we have great resources for you that complement the conversation Geoffrey and I just had. We’ll have links to Geoffrey’s book, Leading Through Storms, available in the toolkit that you can find at PastorServe.org/network. We create a weekly toolkit for this episode, and every episode, you’ll find links to the book. You’ll also find a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide with questions and insights from this conversation, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this very important topic that Geoffrey and I have been talking about, and that is, how do you lead when you’re discouraged? How do you lead when you’re challenged? And that’s what Geoffrey shares in his book, Leading Through Storms. So be sure to check that out. Brother, it has been wonderful to have you with us. Thank you for making time to hang out with us here on FrontStage BackStage.

Geoffrey Dudley
Thank you so much. And for those of you that would like to follow me on all the platforms, you can find me @BishopDudleyPhD, on any of the platforms you follow, Bishop Dudley PhD, on IG, to TikTok, to Instagram, and all that. But thank you so much.

Jason Daye
Awesome. And we’ll be sure to have links to all of your socials as well in the toolkit for this episode for everyone who’s listening and watching. So, if you’re driving in your car or you’re running down the street listening to this, you can find all of the links at PastorServe.org/network. Thank you, brother, again. God bless you. Thank you for being so open, vulnerable, and for sharing. It’s an encouragement to me. I know it’s an encouragement to other pastors and ministry leaders. So, thank you.

Geoffrey Dudley
Thank you for the opportunity.

Jason Daye
Awesome. Well, God bless you.

Geoffrey Dudley
Bless you.

Jason Daye
Here at Pastor Serve, we hope you’re truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage BackStage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you find the show, so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend, and don’t forget our free Toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.