Ministry of Presence: Serving People in Pain : Michelle Keener

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. Please take a moment to give us a thumbs up, and be sure to subscribe or follow us so you do not miss out on any of these great conversations. For this episode, I’m excited to be joined by Dr. Michelle Keener. Michelle is a professor of Christianity at Houston Christian University, and her most recent book is entitled Comfort in the Ashes. Michelle, welcome to the show.

Michelle Keener
Hi, Jason. Thank you so much for having me.

Jason Daye
Yes. Really looking forward to this conversation. We talked a little bit offline about your newest book, Comfort in the Ashes, and you really take a look at Job. I was kind of joking with you a little bit and saying, typically, when we think of Job, the way Job’s talked about or preached, it’s like, hey, bad things happen, but I’m God, kind of hang in there, and we move on. But you dive a little more deeply, thank you, into the book of Job and provide another perspective, which I find incredibly helpful, especially for those of us ministering in the local church context. One of the things that you say in the book is how we steward someone else’s pain really matters. You say this is especially important for the church because the church is supposed to be a safe space. I’d love, Michelle, if you could kind of unpack, first, this idea of stewarding someone else’s pain.

Michelle Keener
Absolutely. So when we think about our role as pastors, church leaders, or ministry leaders, a lot of times we are given both the honor and the responsibility of sitting with someone who’s going through something really awful, something really terrible. A lot of people will turn to the church because they want answers. They want comfort. Where else do I go? Honestly, that’s part of the church’s responsibility. It’s part of what we’re called to do to be that place of comfort and that place of welcoming. So when we encounter someone who is sharing that kind of pain with us, who’s sharing trauma, who’s sharing suffering with us, what we do with that, how we steward it, matters. I was intentional about choosing that word because we often hear it in the context of our finances, right? How do you steward what God has given you in terms of your time? How are you stewarding your time? It brings this beautiful idea, the very biblical idea, of stewardship. So when we encounter someone who is coming to us for comfort, who’s coming to us for help, how do we steward the story that they are giving us? What do we do with that? How do we hold it well? How do we not use it against them? How do we walk with them in a way that is both biblical and healthy? So that’s kind of where that came from.

Jason Daye
Yeah. Excellent. So, as we reflect on the book of Job, we see some stewarding. Maybe some healthy stewarding. Maybe some unhealthy stewarding. So, help us reflect on what we see in Job and how that relates to how we might approach people’s stories and people’s pain in our local churches.

Michelle Keener
Sure, so Job’s friends, right? Job’s friends get a pretty bad rap, and some of it’s warranted. The more you read the book of Job, and when you really sit with it and kind of read it slowly because, let’s face it, it’s a very repetitive book, right? Job talks, and then a friend talks, and then Job talks, and it kind of goes around and around. That’s part of the challenge of the book. But as you read it, you get towards the end of the conversation, the dialogs with the friends, and things are not going well. I mean, insults are flying. People who don’t think the Bible is funny, you need to get to some of these insults in the book of Job. Hysterical and awful and heartbreaking. So what we see is that Job’s friends show up because they hear their friend is suffering, and they travel a long distance, and they show up and they sit with him for seven days, like, dude, yeah, this is bad. They just hang out with him, and they’re just with him. What a beautiful way to steward his pain. Then Job starts talking, and he starts kind of going through all of this confusion that he has. Why is God letting this happen to me? Then his friends get very deeply offended and like, oh, you can’t talk about God that way. All of a sudden, this positive, healthy, supportive stewarding turns into, we’re going to tell you what to do. We’re going to tell you where you’re wrong. You need to do everything that we’re saying, and if you don’t, then there’s something wrong with you. So it flips into this very kind of cruel conversation that’s not helping anybody.

Jason Daye
Yeah, so how’s that reflected in sometimes how we approach people in the local church?

Michelle Keener
Okay, I’m going to try to tread very, very lightly here, right? Because I truly believe the local church is one of the most powerful bodies in the world, and it was intended by God to be that way. There is great power, and there is great mercy, and there is great love in the local church. I serve in my local church. I love the local church, and I love pastors. Having said all that, I think there are times we see the quick fix mentality come into the local church. So someone comes in, they’re walking through something really painful, and oftentimes, as church leaders, as pastors, we have an instinct to, oh, I need to fix this. My task is to get this person back to “normal”, with my little air quotes, right? We need to get them better because this amount of pain, this amount of confusion, this amount of tears, we can’t have this. So this idea of I’m going to give you an answer and I’m going to expect you to do what I’m telling you to do, and then everything will be better, and we can move on. And that is not always, I would suggest, the most helpful response.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. It’s interesting because we live in a society that tends to lean toward things happening quickly, right? Always moving fast, right? Moving faster every day, in fact. As pastors and ministry leaders, as you noted, we tend to have as part of our calling this tendency, too. We want to help people. We want to serve people. We want to help them find wholeness and healing in Christ. You put those two things together, and it can turn into this, Hey, let’s get to the next step pretty quickly. You write in Comfort in the Ashes about this idea of a ministry of presence, the value of that, and what that can look like in our lives as we’re just walking with people, but even in the local church. Can you help us understand a little bit better, Michelle, this idea of a ministry of presence? Not just what it means, but even maybe practically, how can we lean into that in our local ministries?

Michelle Keener
So a ministry of presence is kind of the way that I started conceptualizing what Job’s friends did in the beginning when they just showed up, they sat with him, and they shared their presence with him with no expectation and with no agenda. So a ministry of presence is really this opportunity we have to come alongside someone, to meet them where they are, walk with them on their path of kind of healing and wholeness, and returning to a healthy level of functioning. What that might look like for the local church is first, I would say, avoiding that quick fix mentality and being willing to say, I don’t know, because there are some questions that even as pastors and ministry leaders, we don’t have the answers to, and being able to say, I don’t know, but I’m going to sit with you as we talk through this. Being able to give someone a place where it’s okay to be upset, and it’s even okay to be upset with God, where it’s okay to be filled with sorrow, and there’s no pressure to stop that, to put on a happy face, or to say, Nope, I’m blessed and highly favored. Everything’s great. Making the church a place where lament, where anger, where confusion is actually welcomed because you are surrounded by people who love you and will sit with you and walk with you even in the hard times. Avoiding the idea that we have to make sure the church always looks good. We have to make sure that everybody always has it together because we want to be attractive to visitors, which, of course, we do, but we can’t do that at the expense of people who need to know it’s okay to come in and weep before God and ask these hard questions. So some of the practical tips that I share in the book are that we can provide people with a place of safety. So people can come to the church and know they will be safe, right? Physically, emotionally, and spiritually, they can be safe in this place because a big part of healing from trauma is being able to restore a sense of safety. The church can provide a place where someone can tell their story. It is very important that we have people whom we trust, whom we can share our story with, that we can tell people this is what I’ve been through. Then finally, there is a place to belong, where you will be accepted and you will be loved, even if you are crying your eyes out the whole service, right? You are going to have a place to serve, even if you are still struggling, you are going to have a place of community, even before you have all the answers.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. That’s just a beautiful picture of what the church should be and is called to be. It’s interesting, you touched on this idea of story, and obviously, as we read the book of Job, it’s a narrative, right? It’s Job’s story and his interactions with his friends, his wife, and with God. In the book, you do put an emphasis on this idea of story and the importance of understanding someone’s story. I would like to lean in a little bit more on this because I think sometimes we get in a situation where we sit down, we have a coffee with someone, and we say, Hey, share with me. Then somehow we feel like we’ve accepted their story and we’ve heard their story. But throughout the book, you share that it seems to be something greater and deeper than that when it comes to Christian community. So help walk us through this idea of what it means to really understand someone’s story and sit in their story with them.

Michelle Keener
So I have to acknowledge, first, the incredibly smart, brilliant trauma professionals who came before me. So Judith Herman is one of the pioneers in trauma research, and she talks about the importance of a trauma narrative, and of being able to put our experience into words, which is very difficult with trauma because that’s not the way our brains process it. So it’s a rather lengthy process to be able to get to a place where you can actually put this experience into a story, and one of the things we need is someone who can act as a trusted listener, someone who can be on the receiving end of the story, so we’re not just talking to ourselves. Now, there’s great value in journaling and in prayer, although prayer is not talking to ourselves, but there’s great value when we’re processing on our own. But having someone else to receive that story helps us as we try to formulate it and figure out, what do I want to say? So, like, if we have a bad day at work and you want to come home and you unload on your spouse, sometimes it’s just the process of, let me tell you what my boss did that actually makes us feel better. So having someone who will sit across from you and listen gives us a place to work through that story. There is great healing just in the process of being able to tell the story. Then for the pastor, the ministry leader, the person who’s on the receiving end, there’s a difference between I’m listening to respond, or I’m listening to fix, or I’m just listening to understand, and having the patience and the endurance, really, because a trauma survivor is probably going to want to tell their story multiple times because they’ve got to work through it multiple times. What we see in the book of Job, why does Job keep doing this? Why does it go round and round? Part of trauma is repetition. So having that patience and that endurance to listen and provide that space for someone to process, that’s huge.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. This idea of patience you touched on. The concept of enduring with someone, walking with someone, being patient with someone as they process through this. How does that show up in the way that we disciple others and the way that we engage with others in our local churches?

Michelle Keener
Oh, that’s a great question. So I think anyone who has been in ministry for a while, you will probably be able to put a face to the idea of the person who just keeps coming back, right? They just keep coming back, but they’re always at the same spot, but they keep coming back. You’re like, okay, how do we get you to the next level in a discipleship perspective? Well, what does that require? That requires a lot of patience and it requires a willingness to say you’re back and you’re right here. Okay, we still love you. Let’s keep going. Let’s try again. Then they disappeared. A few minutes later, they come back, and here we are again. Okay. That’s patient endurance because we love them. They might be frustrating us, but we love them. God has said, You’re going to see this person the way I see them. So when we’re dealing with someone who is a trauma survivor or someone who is walking through a season of suffering, it’s the same concept. Okay, yesterday was a really good day, and there was some hope, and you were feeling sort of restored. Then the next day comes along, and it feels like one step forward, two steps back, right? That requires patient endurance. To say that not every day is going to be a good day. Some days it’s going to feel like you’re walking backwards. That’s okay. We’re here. Let’s keep going. So patient endurance, really in love, for all of our people.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. I absolutely love that, Michelle, and that’s just a part of the pastoral role, and that idea, as we’ve been saying, of journeying with people, the willingness to journey with people, and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work that the Holy Spirit does, and not us try to shoulder that burden ourselves, which sometimes we do. I’m curious, Michelle, as you were spending time hanging out with Job, as you’re writing Comfort in the Ashes, was there anything that surprised you as you were digging into it? Anything that kind of jumped out at you as you’re putting all these thoughts together and working through this that kind of gave you a fresh perspective or a new perspective?

Michelle Keener
Oh, my goodness, so much. So much. So this was the topic of my dissertation. Comfort in the Ashes is not my dissertation. That would be too boring to read. This is not a boring read. But from the very kind of nerdy Bible scholar perspective, oh, so much. Like look at this Hebrew word and look at this, right? So all of those nerdy connections, yes. From the non-nerd perspective, I think one of the greatest sort of aha moments that I had was being able to see Job from the perspective of trauma, because if I’m going to be very, very honest and transparent, before I started writing this, I did not like the book of Job. I’d read it. I’d read through the Bible. I read the book of Job multiple times, but it was always a slog for me. I did not enjoy it and I could not really engage with the text because it was just such a frustrating read for me. But then I got this window, which is, let’s look at this from Job’s lived experience. Let’s not look at this from this theological perspective. Why does God allow suffering? Which the book doesn’t answer. Why does God allow evil? Which the book doesn’t answer. But let’s look at it from Job’s perspective, and all of a sudden it kind of flipped for me. I was like, Oh, I’ve been kind of mean to Job all this time. So as I kind of started to see these pieces fit together, it really gave me a new respect for the text, but also a new respect and sensitivity towards the real people who were involved in our Scripture. Like it’s very easy, at least for me, to treat it as my holy book, to treat it as scripture, and lose sight of the very real people who were involved in it, and so it kind of it made it so much more personal for me.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. The irony and just the humor of God that it’s one of those books that wasn’t one of your favorites, and yet, you were led to do your dissertation and then write this incredible book, Comfort from the Ashes, out of that. That’s just fun how God works that way. I’m curious, as we consider this idea of trauma, which we see so much in the world. I think we’re growing, Michelle, in our understanding of trauma. We used to, I think, maybe I’m just speaking personally, but just in conversations I’ve had, we used to think of trauma as something that was very, very elevated. Like, there’s a small percentage of people who experience trauma in their lives, and we think of just these major traumas, and that pretty much everyone else is just living life. But yet, we’ve learned more and more that there are traumatic episodes that pretty much everyone experiences at some point. Because of this reality, we understand that our ministries are always going to be bumping up against people who have varying degrees of trauma in their backgrounds. So, Michelle, with that awareness, what is your hope for the church as we seek to be like, as you say, that safe space?

Michelle Keener
I mean, my big hope for the church in this realm, in the area of trauma, is that we become more aware of and informed on the impact of trauma, and that we become sensitive to it so that we can offer a place of healing and comfort for all of the people who walk through our doors. I love the way you had described kind of our older conceptualization of trauma being this sort of elevated, very out of the ordinary, Oh, only a few people go through that. What we’re learning in trauma research is no. There are varying degrees of trauma. But when we talk about trauma, we don’t mean an event. What we mean is a response. So what might be traumatic for me might not be traumatic for you. So helping the church come to a place of recognizing that we’re not going to judge the event that you’ve been through, we want to respond to where you’re at. How are you walking through this? What is your response? Then being prepared for the repetition, the anger, and the questions. It’s a little bit the same way we had to learn how to minister to people going through grief and understanding that the grief looks different for everyone. Well, trauma is going to look different for everyone. So how do we meet the needs of our congregation in a way that still points them to God, that still points them to the power of the cross, in a way that is both biblical and aware of and sensitive to what we are learning now about like even the neurobiology of trauma. That trauma is not just, oh, it’s in your head. Get over it. There are chemical and neurobiological impacts of trauma. While pastors don’t have to become medical experts, we can at least be aware of what some of those responses look like and how we can meet them.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. I love the correlation you made there about our understanding of grief, how people move through grief, and how they experience grief, and how that relates to how we should be thinking about trauma, because that’s so very true. Because sometimes, unfortunately, and I don’t think it’s necessarily intentional, but we can be dismissive of some things that other people experience in their lives because to us, it doesn’t seem like maybe that’s that big of a deal, and yet it’s based upon how the person is experiencing it, as you said. As you consider churches, local churches, as you consider pastors and ministry leaders, do you have any examples of how churches are handling and stewarding other people’s pain well that you’ve seen, that you’ve experienced, that you could share with us?

Michelle Keener
Examples of churches doing it well. So, to be a little biased, I think my pastor does a phenomenal job at this. I live in Las Vegas, which is a very challenging and at times broken city, and our church attracts a wide diversity of people. I have seen my pastor walk with people who have been through some really awful things, right? They call it Sin City for a reason, and it fits. I think I have seen him do a really wonderful job of meeting people where they are. Not compromising on biblical truth at all, right? Not compromising on the truth of the gospel at all, yet, having that beautiful, patient endurance to wait as they work through this. To be there, even if they’re not ready, as we would say, to either accept Jesus or they’re not ready to plug into the local church, but he’s just giving them his presence, and he’s willing to walk with them as they make this slow journey towards healing. I have so much respect for him and the genuine love and care that he shows people, and that has really restored a lot of my faith in the local church, just to see someone who genuinely lives out the greatest commandment, right? You want to love God and love people. Do that. That has been just really beautiful for me to watch.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s incredible. I would love to give you the opportunity, you have the eyes and ears of pastors and ministry leaders who are serving. I’d love to give you the opportunity, Michelle, to leave some final words of encouragement with them.

Michelle Keener
Oh, my goodness, pressure. Words of encouragement. So first off, I would say thank you so much, pastors and ministry leaders, it is not an easy calling. It’s not an easy task. As someone who receives from you, I’m grateful, and I thank you. I thank you for your faithfulness. I thank you for your service, genuinely. Hearing about trauma, recognizing that there will be people in your congregations who are walking through this, that can feel overwhelming, right? How do I do this? So I would just encourage you to continue to pray about it, continue to ask God to give you his eyes to see his wounded and hurting people, how to shepherd them with the heart of God, come alongside God’s wounded sheep, and lead them towards his calling for them, his destiny and His purpose for them. God established you in your role for such a time as this. So I say walk in it with faithfulness and humility and genuine trust in God who leads you.

Jason Daye
Amen. Great word, Michelle. It’s been so good to have you on the show with us. Your newest book, Comfort in the Ashes, is a great resource exploring how we can serve and steward people’s pain and the experiences, the trauma that they’ve walked through, and really to to live out and serve in that ministry of presence in our local churches, helping our churches to be a safe space. For those of you who are watching or listening along, don’t forget you can find the toolkit that complements today’s conversation, which provides an opportunity for you and your local ministry team to go more deeply into the topic that Michelle and I covered at PastorServe.org/network. In there, you’ll find a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide with insights and questions for you and your team to reflect upon, and also links to Michelle’s book Comfort in the Ashes. So please be sure to check that out. Michelle, it has been an absolute joy to have you with us. Thank you for making the time to join us on FrontStage BackStage.

Michelle Keener
Thank you so much, Jason. I appreciate you having me, and this was a wonderful conversation.

Jason Daye
Thank you. God bless you.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.