Moving Toward Emotional Maturity : Dr. Kevin Chapman

Full-Text Transcript

In our world, emotional distress seems to be increasing. So, can we integrate biblical principles, evidence-based insights from psychology, and spiritual practices to help us master our emotions rather than allowing our emotions to master us?

Jason Daye
In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Kevin Chapman. Kevin is a licensed clinical psychologist and the Founder and Director of the Kentucky Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders. He leads the Sound Mind Ministries and hosts The Sound Mind Show on YouTube. His most recent book is entitled Mastering Our Emotions. Together, Kevin and I have a hope-filled conversation about how we can master our emotions through biblical principles and the power of Christ. Kevin also touches on some of the realities and some of the misconceptions about negative emotions and gives us practical ways that we, as ministry leaders, can help others overcome negative emotions through the power of Christ. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’ve got to tell you, I’m very excited about today’s guest and today’s topic. You see, each and every week, I have the privilege and honor of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and we dive into a topic all in an effort to help you and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy and sustainable rhythms so that you can truly thrive in both life and leadership. We are part proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. Not only do we dive into a conversation every week, but our team also creates an entire toolkit that you can use to really go deeper into the conversation that we have on each episode. For this episode and every episode, you can find that toolkit at PastorServe.org/network, and there you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Now, in this growth guide, you’ll find insights that are pulled from the conversation. You’ll also find questions to take you deeper into the topic at hand. We encourage you to go through that personally and even lead your ministry team at your local church. Through that guide, I believe you’ll find that it’s very helpful to find out how this particular topic shows up or resonates in your specific context. So be sure to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. Our team at Pastor Serve loves journeying alongside pastors and ministry leaders, and if you’d like to learn more about how you could receive a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted coaches, you can find that information at PastorServe.org/freesession, so please be sure to check that resource out as well. Now, if you’re joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and take a moment to drop your name and the name of your church or ministry in the comments below. We love getting to know our audience better and our team will be praying for you and for your ministry. So go ahead and drop that below. Whether you’re joining us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe, follow, and hit the notification bell. You do not want to miss out on any of these great conversations. As I said, I’m super pumped for today’s topic and today’s guest. At this time, I’d like to welcome Dr. Kevin Chapman to the show. Kevin, welcome.

Kevin Chapman
Hey, Jason, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Jason Daye
Yeah. Super excited to have you on the show. Now, Kevin, you are in a field where you have the opportunity to merge a couple of things together. As a devoted Christ follower, obviously, you have a lot of faith and trust in God and in God’s word, but you’re also a professional who focuses in the field of cognitive behavioral therapy, psychology, and those types of things. So talk to us a little bit, Kevin, about how in these two different areas, how you in your life and professional work have brought them together and see them coming together.

Kevin Chapman
So I think I would say, Jason, that it’s interesting because I am in a very secular field. But ultimately, I like to tell people that I’m not a Christian psychologist. I’m a Christian who happens to be a psychologist. My biblical worldview is what influences everything I do. So when I look back on the time of the training that I had with studying anxiety and emotional dysregulation, as we like to say in psychology, and things like cognitive behavioral therapy, when I study the Word, the Holy Spirit has been revealing that much of what I’ve studied scientifically is contained in the Word of God. I think that where I’ve been really frustrated historically is that we’re told things about what the Word of God says about anxiety and even depression. Proverbs 12:25, anxiety in the heart of man causes depression, but a good word makes it glad. But we often don’t understand the practical application of what the Word tells us. So I say that to say that when done correctly, especially when you’re a believer, the things you’ve learned and trained in the marketplace for don’t conflict with the Word of God. That’s what’s so exciting for me, Jason, is being able to take the truths that are contained in the Word of God and apply it on a practical level.

Jason Daye
I absolutely love that. Speaking of a practical level, your most recent book, Mastering Our Emotions, and I’ve got my copy here. Absolutely incredible. The thing, Kevin, that I love about this book is and I’ve read a lot of books on emotions from a Christian perspective by a lot of mental health care professionals, but what you do in this book is you make things incredibly practical. You take Scripture, you piece it together with practice, and it gives us an opportunity to really lean into this idea of mastering our emotions. When you think of even that term, mastering our emotions, that might sound like, oh, you know, what does that even mean? Can I ever really master my emotions? So, talk to us a little bit about just this idea of approaching our emotions in this fashion.

Kevin Chapman
Yeah, amen. I think, Jason, it’s everything we say is intentional, right? Then, the title of that book is self-explanatory as it relates to mastering our emotions. Notice I didn’t title it “managing” or “dealing with” or those things. It’s mastering our emotions. Our emotions are created by God. God has emotions. We have emotions. We’re made in His image. The problem is that so often, Jason, we experience emotions, and so many people in the body of Christ view certain emotions. See? That’s the key. It’s certain emotions, anxiety, anger, sadness, or disgust, which no one talks about. But nonetheless, the word of God even talks about that. So I say that to say that so many of us have been dominated by our emotions, which I argue occurred at the fall in Genesis 3. The problem is that we’re not to be dominated by our emotions. Our emotions are meant to help us navigate our world, even to serve God, but we have to learn, Jason, to regulate them and to respond to them in a way that is adaptive. When we do that, we see that our emotions are actually serving the purpose of helping us navigate, helping us spread the gospel, helping us respond to actual threat, which actually does, in fact, happen. That’s the key is that we are made to master our emotions, and the Word of God makes that very clear.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s awesome. I think that gives us a lot of hope as well because a lot of people feel, hey, this is what I’ve got. I have a short fuse. I get angry easily. That’s just how I’m wired, or whatever. That’s how God made me. Blame God for it, right? So, I think there’s a lot of hope to think that if we’re intentional, right? Kevin, if we’re intentional and we do the work, and that’s one of the things God invites us into is the work of taking up our cross daily and following Christ as we’re becoming disciples. We’re becoming more Christ-like. We’re being sanctified through and through. So there is this reality in the Christian worldview, in the truth that we are in progress, that means there’s work and oftentimes I think we’re like, well, that’s just how it is. So talk to us a little bit, Kevin, about understanding. You said that the fall. You know, a lot of the negative side of emotions comes out of the fall. Talk to us a little bit because I know one of the things that you hone in on, which I thought was incredibly helpful in the book, is this idea of the negative emotions, how that shows up, and how that interplays in our life as people. So talk to us a bit about that.

Kevin Chapman
Yeah, it’s interesting, a scripture often used when I’m doing a sound mind show is Hosea 4:6 often says My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge because you’ve rejected knowledge. For me, that scripture really speaks to the idea, Jason, that what we don’t know can, in fact, hurt us. I think so many times, we kind of proceed with life thinking that we’re wired a certain way and there is some fact related to that. But I think that if we hone in on Genesis 3 and talk about what the Word of God says happened at the fall, we know sin entered in, and we know we live in a fallen world. But I think what the church has not done historically is kind of extrapolate what all of that means. I think what I’ve learned through the study of the Word is that what entered in also were things like genetic predispositions. Now that’s interesting, right? Because there are certain people who have a tendency toward “anxiety” disorders. I think, Jason, I’m not big on labels. Our identity is in Christ, amen? I say that to say, we do have symptoms of things to be clear, but that’s not who I am, right? So with that being said, we know definitively, from a factual standpoint, that certain people, because of the fall, have a predisposition to experience intense emotionality. High anger, high fuses, or chronic anxiety and worry. Things the word of God tells us not to do. The key is we have to know and acknowledge that though we have genetic predispositions, many of us who develop “disorders”, the Word of God clearly tells us that through reading of the Word, spending time in the Word, communing with the Father, and knowing who we are in Christ, there are things in the Word of God that we can activate to essentially reprogram that. That’s why I love Romans 12:2, right? We all know Romans 12:2. But the key it says is to be transformed by what? The renewing of your mind, that you may prove. That “may prove” part, that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. It is possible Jason for us, though factually speaking, we have genetic predispositions, stressors, things in our environment, things that we learn that were modeled from parents, and things like that. That is a fact. But the truth of the Word of God is that’s no longer who we are. So we can, in fact, reprogram that through practical strategies that the Word of God offers. I see it all the time, and it’s all obviously very gratifying. So yes, though we can have these contributions because people do, I think the first step, Jason, as GI Joe used to say back in the day, knowing is half the battle. We have to know what we don’t know, right? And when we know that those things are there, we don’t have to live from that tree. We can actually reprogram that from the Word of God.

Jason Daye
Yeah. That’s super helpful, Kevin. That’s not to say that everyone is going to have the same level of mastery over their emotions because if someone is predisposed, genetically predisposed, or if they have some sort of chemical imbalance, or whatever it might be, or they experience some sort of trauma, right? Then naturally, they’re going to have more things. They’re starting at a different place than someone who hasn’t experienced that. So it’s not dismissing all those things. It’s saying there’s hope in the midst of those things, right? That’s what I love. It’s that idea that there’s hope in the midst of this, that we don’t have to just throw our hands up and say, This is just how it is. That God says, No, I am here to journey with you. Your identity is in Christ and there are things that you can do if you’re willing to lean in, listen, and journey with the Spirit. There are things that can help improve your situation. That’s why I love this, Kevin. It’s this incredible, incredible idea of hope. That in the world in which we live now with so much mental anguish and emotional distress so prevalent that just this word of hope that it can be better, you know what I mean? That there are opportunities to improve, I think, is huge. So, Kevin, talk to us a little bit about this idea you wrote in the book about soul distress, or emotional distress. Help us understand what that is and why understanding that helps set us up for the opportunities to kind of master some of these emotions and pull ourselves out.

Kevin Chapman
Yeah. So in the book, Jason, I highlight essentially what I would deem is what occurred at the fall of man, right? So when sin entered the world, we talk about genetic predispositions in the book, and we talk about how when sin entered in, so did other things that are not of God, such as certain traits. There’s something I talk about in the book called neuroticism. We talk a lot about extraversion and introversion and we all know what those things are. But there’s another trait that is universal, right? That’s called neuroticism. Neuroticism is a tendency to experience negative emotions, coupled with the perception that the world around me is threatening and that I’m ill-equipped to cope with it. That’s what we find, at least scientifically, is the key to people who struggle with a tendency toward “emotional disorders”. So what I say in the book is we talk about what I deem as soul distress. Soul distress can be defined as those manifestations that we often see in people in the body of Christ who struggle with things in the soulless realm, such as “emotional disorders” or anger problems, right? Even eating disorders to a degree, other things like perfectionism, and all these things where we’re striving and trying to make ourselves feel better in ways that backfire and actually perpetuate negative emotional cycles. So soul distress is really like all the difficulties that we often face in the body of Christ that can be diagnosed or it could just be simply things that aren’t such as I feel really uncomfortable when the pastor wants me to speak in church. I feel really uncomfortable praying in front of people. I feel really uncomfortable praying with someone, right? These are all things I deem as soul distress. The core feature there is that I’ve learned to respond to normal God-given emotions in a way that backfires and makes those emotional experiences worse. What I hope that I’m offering in this book are practical ways to acknowledge that that’s happening, point A. Then point B, saying we can live from the different tree and be reprogrammed through the word of God. You’ve been through a lot. We have these syndromes and diagnoses, and yet there is still hope for you if you apply these practical principles and do repetition through that process, you will live and walk in the new man, in the new creation.

Jason Daye
Absolutely love that, Kevin. As pastors and ministry leaders, those who are watching or listening along, many that might resonate with this personally. They might say, You know what, I tend to have negative thoughts. I tend to feel that the world is threatening around me. They might feel that personally or there might be some who identify family members that struggle with that, parishioners, or congregants, right? People in their church or on their ministry team. So we understand this is kind of a reality. But in the book, you help walk us through different ways to master our emotions and different ways to really lean into these things to help alleviate a lot of this negativity that we’re feeling. So help us think through and you can just share some of those ways that you have encouraged us to like, initially, mastering the emotions, understanding what’s at play in emotions because we don’t even necessarily take time to think through that, right? We just think, oh, it’s an emotion. But what’s at play whenever we’re wrestling with a particular emotion?

Kevin Chapman
Yeah, that’s a great question, Jason, I think I’d say that to start out with, I think what I offer initially in the book is I have fellow believers understanding, first of all, emotions don’t occur in a vacuum, even though sometimes they feel that way. I think we often have to be able to track and detect what emotions are even telling us. What is frustration? What is shame? Can we even define those emotions? What is guilt? What does the word of God say about those? So I start out by really getting people to delve into understanding the purpose, first and foremost, of emotions. If I don’t understand the purpose of emotions, I definitely can’t develop practical skills to respond to them differently. So I really talk about the importance of knowing what the Word says about various emotions and what those emotions are intended to help us with. Quick example. You know anger. We know the Word of God talks about anger. We talk about, in Ephesians 4:26 that Paul talks about, be angry, but do not sin. Don’t let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil. But David, and we know Paul knew the word of God. David says in Psalms 4:4, not only the same thing but how to respond to it. Most of us really don’t see that, right? So Psalms 4:4 says, Be angry, but do not sin. Meditate within your heart in your bed and be still. One of the things I extrapolate from that is that he’s essentially saying, that not only are you supposed to experience anger when it’s warranted like Jesus in the temple, for example, but also there’s a response to it that is necessary and adaptive. It doesn’t have to be wrath. So we talk about the nature and function of emotion, but then I introduce the reader to what I call “being” skills. Right? Our identity is in Christ, and we need to position ourselves, or posture ourselves, if you will, to activate those things. So I talk about our skills as “being” skills, for example, being present. I talk about Psalm 16:11 which says, you will show me the path of life. In Your presence is fullness of joy. So we talk about how it’s difficult to be in God’s presence if I’m not present. That smartphone, all the cares in the world, and all the things distracting us constantly, and as you know us as believers and even ministers of the word of God, we get distracted. These are all things where there’s no exception to that rule. But we talk about, how do we unplug from those things practically, and learn how to respond to our emotions as they’re happening in real-time, as opposed to what we think will happen two hours from now or three days ago. I think the other thing I’d say is one of my favorite skills, if I may, in the book, is where I talk about being renewed. Romans 12:2. So I’ll offer some practical strategies to talk about, how do you identify negative, automatic thoughts that you have, and how do you utilize questions that allow you to see it from a biblical lens, to challenge those questions, not to accept those but to challenge those thoughts, not to accept those thoughts as facts, but rather to Say, what’s the word of God say about this thought? What is the scripture that I can stand on that helps me replace that negative thought with the truth of the Word of God, then activate that thought, and then actually put myself in situations to have victory and to have evidence to support that I am who the Word of God says I am.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I absolutely love that, Kevin. Really this, in so many ways, is all, as I said earlier, discipleship in many ways. The renewing of your mind. This is all okay, How do we live in Christ? How do we lean into what God has already done in us?But actually investing ourselves, Kevin, and that’s one of the things I love about the book, Mastering Our Emotions, is it takes you through practical exercises where you’re investing in growing in your identity in Christ and understanding what’s going on kind of underneath everything because oftentimes in our lives, we’re busy and we’re distracted, as you said. So we’re not taking the time to look under the surface. So I think that’s super helpful. One of the things that you touched on in the book that I really loved was the idea of confronting our emotions and you talk about it as being brave. I think that chapter, in particular, is one of those things that we all just kind of need to embrace in some way, especially those of us who are, I mean, everyone, but pastors and ministry leaders, we need to process through this as well. So share with us a little bit, Kevin, about this idea of confronting our emotions and being brave.

Kevin Chapman
Yeah, so Jason, I feel strongly about that. I think since you’ve read the book, you know that the tone of the book, to your point that you’ve said a couple of times now, is hope. I would even say that even when we constructed that chapter, the thoughts I had were authority, activation, excitement, encouragement, hope, you can do this. Right? It wasn’t, Oh, poor is me. I can’t do anything. Right? It’s more so no, we’re going to partner together through discipleship and we’re going to confront emotion. See, I think oftentimes what fires me up, Jason, as you get to know me, is this idea that we take 2 Corinthians 10:4-5, take every high thought captive, and cast it down. So many people I encounter, not only through ministry but also as clients, we often interpret that as putting our fingers in our ears and pretending emotions aren’t happening. I think what’s so important is that’s offensive. We’re supposed to take those thoughts captive. So it’s this idea of drawing a proverbial line in the sand and saying, now that I understand the purpose of emotions, now I know how to be present, now that I understand triggers to emotions, now that I understand that the emotions aren’t the problem per se, it’s how I’ve learned to view them and respond to them. Now that I’ve learned to confront physical sensations in my body, knowing they’re not dangerous, now that I know how to renew my mind, let’s pop our knuckles and let’s roll our sleeves up, and let’s identify situations that occasion or set us up to experience certain emotions, and let’s get after it in the name of Jesus. We confront any situation that triggers intense emotionality, and we learn that what the Word of God says actually is manifesting, which is we do, in fact, have the victory, and we are free. See, I’m excited because I see people change on a regular basis and I want people to know that if you invest in doing these practical strategies, you can’t not change. It’s inevitable. You have to. That’s what’s so exciting about it, is we confront emotions, but when we suppress them, Jason, push them away, or pretend they’re not there, they get bigger and they manifest stronger when in reality when you paradoxically confront an emotion, it might be uncomfortable at first, but there’s freedom.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I absolutely love that and I love the overall approach because again, in our world today, there’s a lot of talk about mental health. There’s a lot of talk about emotional health and that’s the reality younger generations are wrestling with it in greater numbers than what we’ve seen or have noticed, probably, and in this idea that there are biblical principles related to our mental health that we can embrace, that we can practice, and that we can lean into helps us do exactly what you’re saying, Kevin. It helps us not just to sit back and accept, okay, this is what it is, but say no, God has something more. It’s an invitation, really, for people to lean in and to experience those things. Kevin, as you’re talking to pastors and ministry leaders, what are some next steps, would you say? Let’s talk first, personally for them, for those who might be wrestling with negative thoughts. Obviously, going through the book, the practices that you share in the book. But what would you recommend for someone who’s watching right now or listening right now who says, Hey, man, I wrestle with this personally? What would your recommendation be?

Kevin Chapman
I think, Jason, the recommendation that I would come up with would be, first and foremost, that the enemy wants to keep our mouths shut. I think in doing so, we stay locked into subjective experience. When we don’t talk about these things and when we pretend that we don’t have these emotions, we’re being very subjective, which intensifies the feelings. I’m all about teaching us how to focus on the features of emotions, not just the feelings of emotions. So I think first and foremost, we need to normalize that we have negative just like we have positive emotions. So when we identify what are the emotions that I struggle with, I need to write those down, Jason, because see what that does is that forces ministry leaders and those in ministry to say, Wait a second. First of all, what is the emotional label? Second of all, let’s write it down because it causes me to be objective, and now I see that like an outside party, and I’m not staying stuck in my own head. That’s what the enemy wants us to do, is to isolate ourselves and keep us on silos so that we’re not talking about these things. So once I write that down and say, Okay, maybe it’s anxiety. Maybe it’s anger that I’ve struggled with. Maybe it’s frustration. Now, secondly, have I labeled myself these things? Have I labeled myself a hothead? Have I labeled myself as someone with anger problems? Have I labeled myself as I have “fill in the blank”? See, when I do that, then it presumes that it’s a part of my identity, when in reality, it’s symptoms I’m fighting off as opposed to that’s who I am. So I think we have to not only normalize the emotions, we need to write them down, and we need to define them. Once we do that, we can start identifying what triggers these things. I didn’t say what causes these things. I said, What triggers these emotions. Then I start studying the Word of God, I look for instances in the Word where that occurred, and that’s going to help me unlock some of these truths.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s fantastic. I love that. I love just the processing and the intentionality. We’ve probably used that word multiple times during this conversation, but it’s so true. You either sit back and let life happen, or you lean in as a child of God. So I absolutely that. So that’s super helpful. In speaking to local churches and ministries who say, I see this prevalent in people’s lives, and as a pastor ministry leader, my heart’s broken for them. They’re caught up in negative emotions. They’re wrestling with these things. What would you recommend to a local church or ministry? What can they do to help invite people into a healthier approach to this?

Kevin Chapman
Yeah, frankly, Jason, I’d say again, like I’m a servant, just like you are. But with that question, I have to say that that’s literally the intended purpose of this book. This book can be used not only for individuals who struggle with intense emotionality, but also with the children in my family, with my spouse, and with my ministry leaders when I’m discipling others at church, or when I’m doing small groups. As you know, Jason, this book is designed to help you in any sort of modality that’s going to be helpful. So what I would say is that my heart behind it is for this very thing that you’re asking about. It’s discipling the body of Christ. Not just converting. Discipling. Which is the mandate. So I think having small groups where we’re talking about week one, what are emotions? Let’s talk about what emotions are, let’s talk about the Word of God, and what the Word of God says about anxiety. What it says about fear, which is another discussion we can have. Fear and anxiety are not the same. These are things we talk about in the book, and yet a spirit of fear is something we often talk about, which I also talk about in the book. So I say that to say that I think that they can use this as a guide and a resource to invite congregants to talk more about this stuff. But even for their leaders, so that when we recognize people coming to the altar, or people who have prayer requests, who struggle with these emotions, we’re able to actually speak to those in a graceful sort of way, as opposed to a condemning way that unfortunately has occurred sometimes, and that we’re able to give a better understanding of what the Word says about those emotions and help the body of Christ.

Jason Daye
Yes, that’s excellent. In Mastering Our Emotions, for every chapter you do have questions and you have exercises that people engage in. I even saw in there that you have a QR code where people can get PDFs that they can use in a small group to prepare these exercises, and to work through these, which I think is an incredible resource for the church as a whole. Now, Kevin, you did mention something I actually had in notes that I took regarding fear and anxiety, and people who are watching or listening will be like, Oh, he touched on that. But what in the world? So what is the difference between fear and anxiety? Because this is something that I highlighted and I literally made notes about when I was reading through that chapter.

Kevin Chapman
Yeah, that’s really funny, Jason, because I think that it’s something we encounter. We’re playing church family feud. Name one of the things that people confuse. Fear and anxiety. Good answer. Good answer. Because we talk about a spirit of fear and I have some teachings on this, but I’ll say the cliff note to that is that fear, by definition, is in response to present danger. Fear is essentially the same thing as fight, flight, or freeze. So in other words, it’s the perception that I’m in danger and my body is hardwired to respond to it. It’s like if I’m in a fire, fear is the appropriate response. It’s present-focused. Anxiety, on the other hand, is a future-oriented emotion, and it involves thoughts of uncontrollability and unpredictability of future events. So fear is present danger, fight or flight. Panic attacks and fear are actually the same thing. One is a true alarm. One is a false alarm. Panic is essentially fear, but I’m paying attention to no threat. I’m paying attention to my body, which makes it worse. Fear, on the other hand, is adaptive. Anxiety is always future-oriented. Anxiety is “what if”. It’s preparatory coping, preparing for future threats and potential. So just knowing that difference, I think, will really help a whole lot of people, knowing that when I say, Oh, well, I’m having an anxiety attack. Technically, there’s no such thing. Really, it’s a panic attack or I’m having heightened anxiety. And then I’d even add, Jason, you didn’t ask this, but I’ll say that worry is something we do in response to anxiety. It’s our way of attempting to problem-solve future events that actually backfires and makes us more anxious, which is why Jesus talks about in Matthew 6 and Luke 12 not to do it. Because worry is futile, and scientifically, we define it as futile, which is really ironic.

Jason Daye
That’s fascinating. It’s interesting because people read Jesus’ words there in Matthew 6 and they think, Oh, well, that’s impossible. How can I not worry? Because this is how I’m wired. This is who I am, right? People who feel caught up in that. So Kevin, talk to us a little bit about how people might misperceive what’s going on. As you said, Fear versus anxiety versus worry, and how the reality is that we can come to a place or work ourselves to a place by intentionally leaning on Christ to get to a posture where we aren’t consumed by worry? What does that entail?

Kevin Chapman
That’s a great question because I think that so often we posture ourselves so much that since we’ve been experiencing those intense emotions, we don’t think there’s a way out. So it becomes a part of who we are. It’s like, “I’ve tried everything” is a quote I often hear. But once you acknowledge the differences between those emotions, and once you acknowledge that the problem isn’t the emotion, the problem is my learned responses to those emotions, that is really liberating for people who have a revelation of, wait a second, so though I’ve had this for 25 years, it’s not the length of time that’s the issue, it’s how I’ve learned to think about the symptoms that’s the issue. You’re saying that if I can posture myself to respond differently to these emotions that are actually adaptive and helpful, then you’re saying by partnering with the Holy Spirit and confronting those emotions, you’re literally reprogramming your brain. I repeat you are reprogramming your brain again. Renewing my mind and brain reprogramming are essentially the same thing, and that’s what’s so beautiful about it, is that when you have the practical application, you see this in real-time, and you see change quickly.

Jason Daye
That’s awesome. From your seat, obviously, you’ve worked with clients, and you’ve been able to see and celebrate the reality of this change, which is a beautiful thing. That goes all the way back to the beginning of our conversation when you were talking about the science behind that, yes, we can reprogram our brains. We can create new pathways in our minds and how that actually dove shells perfectly with what Scripture already tells us, right? So it supports, which shouldn’t be a surprise to us who are believers, that science actually supports what God says, you know? So that’s a beautiful thing. I love that. Kevin, as we’re kind of winding down the conversation, I want to give you an opportunity to share a little bit with pastors and ministry leaders. You have a huge heart for ministry leaders. You’ve seen challenges that they’ve faced. You’ve seen difficulties that they’ve endured. What words of encouragement would you like to share with brothers and sisters who are serving in ministry today?

Kevin Chapman
I guess what I would say is that as a purpose in my heart, what you’re saying, Jason, I think the scripture that comes to mind, I would say, is Romans 5:3-5, and it says that not only that, but we glory in tribulation. Knowing the tribulation produces perseverance and perseverance, character and character, hope. Now hope doesn’t disappoint, knowing that the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given to us. I just want to say to the people who are on the front lines, myself included, stay firm. Stand firm. Draw the line in the sand, and know that when you partner with the Word of God, when you partner with the Holy Spirit, and when you partner with what Jesus has done for us, we have the victory. I just want you to know that it’s just a matter of knowing you’re one revelation away from activating the things that Jesus did for us and provided for us through His death, burial, and resurrection. We have those things, and I know that the Holy Spirit is going to work through all of you who are paying attention to this and give you revelation of the things that are related to emotions and the struggles you may have had, not only so that you can walk in victory, but so that you can disciple those that you encounter. So be encouraged, brothers and sisters. I love you.

Jason Daye
Amen. I love that. Great word. Kevin, if people want to connect with you, with your your ministry, with your practice, or learn more about the book, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Kevin Chapman
Yeah, so let’s see, Sound Mind Ministries is our nonprofit. So you can go to SoundMindMinistries.org. You can find me clinically by going to DrKevinChapman.com. Our Center’s website is KYCards.com, and you can find me on Instagram and other platforms. So @DrKevinChapman on Instagram. I’m on Facebook. I’m on LinkedIn. I’m on all the platforms. So I’m easy to find. I would love to connect with fellow brothers and sisters in the body of Christ.

Jason Daye
Excellent. Awesome. So for those of you who are watching or listening, if you’re driving in the car, if you’re out for a jog, and you can’t jot all those things down, know that we’ll have links to Kevin’s nonprofit and to his social channels. We’ll have links to the book Mastering Our Emotions, so you can order that for yourself and everything else that Kevin mentioned. We’ll have that all in the toolkit that you can find at PastorServe.org/network, you can find that toolkit there and download it. You’ll have all those links. So awesome, brother. Thank you for your heart, first and foremost. Thank you for the hope that you exude and the excitement. You’ve witnessed these transformations in people’s lives. You’ve witnessed the Spirit at work. You invite people to wrestle with that and lean into that. So thank you for that. Thank you for the resources you’ve created for the church, not only Mastering Our Emotions the book but also the resources around it, so that churches and ministries can use this with their people in group settings and those types of things. Thank you, Kevin, for making the time to hang out with us today on FrontStage BackStage.

Kevin Chapman
Thank you so much, Jason. It was a privilege and honor.

Jason Daye
Awesome, brother. Well, God bless you.

Kevin Chapman
God bless you, too. Thank you.

Jason Daye
Thank you.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.