Reaching Every Generation – Walter Kim

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each and every week, I have the privilege of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and we dive into a topic all in an effort to help you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you thrive in both life and leadership. I’m really excited about today’s conversation as I’m joined by Walter Kim. Walter is the president of the National Association of Evangelicals. Walter, welcome to FrontStage BackStage.

Walter Kim
Jason, thanks for having me on.

Jason Daye
Yeah. So good. Thank you for making the time to hang out with us. I know, Walter, you have such a heart, obviously, for the church. The church global, but a special place for the church in the US, and in your role as president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Walter, you and your team have the opportunity, really, to have your thumb on the pulse of the capital C Church, the evangelical church in the US. As you serve in your capacity, as your team resources and supports pastors, and represents evangelicals, I’m sure you have the opportunity to see the kind of ebb and flow of the challenges really that pastors in the evangelical church are facing. So, Walter, I would love to hear from you what you and your team are seeing as some of the greatest challenges right now that pastors are facing.

Walter Kim
Yeah, Jason, that’s a great and bright, germane question. This is the sweet spot of things that we struggle with. Let me take a little bit of a step back and describe a bit of the breadth of the NAE to give a context for what I’m about to say. Yeah, so there are 40 different denominations, various streams of evangelicalism, hundreds of different kinds of organizations, whether it’s a nonprofit humanitarian, Christian humanitarian organization, or the educational institution, whether it’s a college or seminary, or campus ministries, different types of community-developed ministries. So there’s a breadth. When you talk about the ebbs and flows, I think it’s not just to use that kind of water illustration. It’s not just the ebbs and flows, but there are tide pools, and there are different kind of streams and tributaries that are flowing in, and that, in and of itself, is a challenge, because what it means is that how people understand church even, where they get their spiritual formation, is no longer localized in your parish that you all walk to and have multiple generations that you’ve grown up with in terms of your Christian community. It means that the average churchgoer, and then therefore the average pastor. It almost doesn’t matter where you live in the country. This is true in urban and rural settings. The kind of spiritual influences that are forming you are authors that you will never meet in person, influencers or internet resources that are disembodied but are shaping how you understand scripture, or counseling resources that might be connected to your local church or not. You may have been formed by your campus ministry as a college student, and then all of a sudden, have expectations. Why isn’t my pastor meeting me once a week like my staff worker used to, right? So what I’m describing is this influx of influences that is unlike anything that we’ve seen before for the church in America and really worldwide. So that’s kind of one big challenge. What do you even do with the multiple tributaries that are flowing in and forming your people as a pastor and ministry leader, and therefore shaping their expectations of what you should be able to provide? Counseling as good as the center. Spiritual formation as good as the latest book. Time like your campus worker gave you. The breadth of internet resources that could tackle any specific problem that you pose to it. Well, you know, if I’m getting this, you know, from the internet, shouldn’t I also get this from my pastor or pastoral staff? So that influx is both an amazing, enriching opportunity for the Church and its mission, but it sets up almost impossible expectations of what a local church is actually and navigating that. Tapping into all these wonderful resources, yet simultaneously recognizing that there’s something really important and precious about our embodied, lived experience as a worshiping community, with all the unmet expectations that are there, both from congregants and also from pastoral leaders, as well as real opportunities. So that’s something of a big overview that we could certainly tease out.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, Walter, and it does present the two sides to the coin, right? There’s the positive and the negative. There is this breadth of resourcing that’s available, which is beautiful in many ways, right? We can tap into things that we couldn’t tap into mere decades ago. Yet, at the same time, as you said, Walter presents this challenge and this tension even for the local church ministry leaders, the pastors, and local churches. So, Walter, how have you seen local churches, whether large, small, urban, or rural, approach this and address this in a way that is both healthy, because I think health is a huge thing that we’re trying to lean into in the local church, but in a healthy way and in a way that helps, ultimately, our people develop as Christ followers?

Walter Kim
I think coming to a humble recognition of what the local church offers simultaneously is an opportunity to discover the wonder of what the local church offers, right? So, to walk away from this overweening burden of I have to preach as well as that celebrity pastor on YouTube. I have to drop pearls of wisdom, as well as that latest top-selling Christian book might be. I have to be as slick in my presentation as the multiple generations might require me, and I just have to keep up with all this information of what the latest trends are. What’s going on? That’s overwhelming, but I think there’s also this humble recognition of, yeah, but who’s going to visit them in the hospital room? Who’s going to cry with them when their marriage is falling apart? Who’s going to remember the child’s name in the weekly prayer meeting? There is something beautifully embodied that it is, in fact, the deepest longing of what we want. Yeah, we really want those connections because God has created us for those. So one of the most beautiful things that I’m witnessing across the country, again, it doesn’t matter what denomination or where you are in the country, is this growing recognition of having lived through this kind of evangelical industrial entity of church growth, of realizing Yes, but there is something quite compelling and beautiful about what the local church has to offer in its mere ministry of presence and humble presence of We’re Not everything. Yeah, maybe there is a resource out there that we can point you toward, but there’s no resource that’s going to replace incarnation, the actual presence, in moments of crisis with those who are longing to see, what does it look like to walk with Jesus in the flesh and blood?

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. Walter, it’s fascinating because as we talk and engage with younger generations, there is such a craving for that embodiment, for that authenticity. They’re kind of over the, in many ways, I mean, they go back and forth, but they’re over, in many ways, kind of the celebrity status. They might want to glance at it or scroll by it, but they understand there’s a bit of an emptiness to it, it seems. So it seems that they’re craving something more tangible, something more embodied, something more present and real. Walter, how have you seen pastors and ministries leaning into what that really looks like in the local church to be that presence in the community?

Walter Kim
Yeah, this is where I’m going to draw on the richness of resources that actually exist out there. So InterVarsity Christian Fellowship has produced kind of this interesting initiative that examines generational shifts and what are like predominant questions that different generations ask about life and the gospel? Of course, in every generation, there are some very common things that we all are going to be asking, but there’s typically a gateway question. So, for the boomers, the gateway question is, What is true? We saw that in the proliferation of apologetics ministries defending the Bible, the truthfulness of the Bible. For Gen Xers, and I’m in that category. We grew up going to seminary, being trained to always make sure you open and close with a personal story to keep it real. So what is real is the Gen X question. It’s also why small group ministries really flourished during the Gen X period, because we wanted to keep it real. Millennials ask the question of, What is good? So you see the rise of social justice ministries doing good in this world. Exponentially arise, the kind of conferences, ministries that were developed. It appears that for Gen Z’ers, the gateway question is, What is beautiful? Literally, I was at Oxford recently for some events with Christianity Today, and we had a presentation from the Gen Z leader, and she literally said this. For me and my generation, what is beautiful is the opening doorway to the Gospel. We want to know it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful in embodied communities, working things out in the messiness of life. It’s beautiful in representations of art and music that are expressive of aspects of the gospel that may not show up in just defending the truth. It’s beautiful in the diversity that exists. Many grew up with this diverse classroom, but not diverse churches, and the mismatch of seeing the diversity in their school, but not seeing it in their church raises up questions of, where’s the beauty of a gospel that could bridge differences? So I think there is something quite compelling right now with this notion of presenting a gospel, of course that’s true, of course that does good in the world, of course that keeps it real, but puts it together in a package that is so compellingly beautiful. It is, in fact, what Isaiah talks about. How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. There is something quite compelling and desired in this moment of cultural ugliness, there’s a lot of ugly going on in this world. Can the gospel actually produce something beautiful?

Jason Daye
I absolutely love that, Walter. It’s fascinating to hear you walk through those kinds of key questions, and I think one of the challenges that we ministry can have is that we latch onto maybe one of those questions, right? Then we get stuck, and then we get frustrated that people aren’t responding to the way we are addressing that one question. So, Walter, how can we better look across the breadth of those questions in the way that we serve and minister?

Walter Kim
Yeah, Jason, that’s a great question. I would say that the pastor now needs to think more like a missionary. When you’re a missionary, you assume, I have a whole lot of learning to do. I need to learn a new language. I need to learn new cultural eating habits, cultural ways of greeting, cultural morals and values, and to understand that the gospel is this matchmaking process of, This is who you are and all that God has given in your particular culture, this is what the Gospel says, we’re going to find this match, and we need to become multilingual. I think of the apostle Paul, and just one chapter in Acts 17, at the beginning, he’s talking in the synagogues with a Jewish audience, and it describes him as reasoning from the Scriptures with those in the synagogues. This is in Thessalonica. Then, just later in the chapter, he’s in Athens talking to the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers, and not once does he overtly quote Scripture. He overtly quotes two Greek philosophers and poets. This is one person who is shifting because he wants to do all things for the sake of the gospel, to the Jew, become a Jew, to the Greek, Greek. This sense that we don’t have to be an expert, but we have to be expertly curious. It’s not like you, all of a sudden, need to be a sociological expert on Gen Z versus boomers, but you do have to have the God-given curiosity of people who not only love God, but love those whom God has called them to reach, and love means asking tons of questions. I mean, just think about that first date with the person that you were courting. If you just talked the whole time, there’s probably not going to be a second date, but if you ask lots of questions and demonstrate curiosity in this other person, more often than not, that’s going to work to your benefit. So, I think there is this deep urge that I would give to people, that more than a technique, more than the latest book, is a posture of humility that is quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger, because human anger doesn’t achieve the righteousness of God, as James puts it. There’s just a general good ministry principle there of recognizing that the act of loving another person by asking them questions, by demonstrating curiosity, and by taking seriously their different way of thinking about life, not as a view to be defeated. Maybe you need to persuade out of it, but first and foremost, a view to be understood, empathized, and connected with, so that together, you journey toward gospel truth, goodness, realness, and beauty.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends, just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation as well as reflection questions, so that you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Amen. That’s good, Walter. It’s interesting that that posture of curiosity and connectedness versus that almost combatant mindset. I’d love, since you serve as the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, I’d love for us to kind of lean in. I think there’s a connection here. I’m curious, the word evangelical, the idea of evangelicalism, has come under some scrutiny and some questioning, some pushback, or tension. However you want to describe it, over the last decade or so, I would say. I’m curious, Walter, as you were walking through the differences of how generations not only think about the questions they’re asking, but the differences of how generational ministry leaders often lead kind of within those categories, is there some connectivity between getting caught up in what you think other people need to hear, how you think other people need to hear the gospel, and some pushback that the culture or society has been giving when it comes to evangelicals? Is there some connectivity there? What can we learn from that? What might be most helpful for us, rather than getting defensive, I sense your heart that we get defensive, but where do we go? So, talk to us a little bit about this evangelical question that culture is posing right now.

Walter Kim
Yeah, I think it’s indisputably the case that as even the term evangelical gets brought forward, that most of the common kind of public discourse is that, oh, this is a political movement. It votes a certain way. It looks a certain way. And honestly, there is some truth to that. There are segments of evangelicalism that have become politicized, or are certainly political and expressive of that political view in very particular ways. But I think that does a disservice to the breadth of actual evangelicalism that it is, in fact, very diverse denominationally, but also ethnically, racially, and generationally, it’s a very diverse movement, and that diversity is both a challenge as well as a beautiful opportunity, right? So what I would encourage us to lean into is a recovery of what has always been the case of evangelicalism. The term has always arisen, it seems like, and gained prominence in moments of renewal. It’s at heart a renewal movement. So when Martin Luther was describing what he was about, he didn’t use the term Protestant to describe himself. He used a German word for evangelical. That’s what he was doing. He was developing an evangelical movement. It was a recovery of the evangel, the Gospel, the Greek word for gospel. When Wesley was seeking to provide this kind of revival, not only of personal faith, but the abolition of slavery, the term evangelical was brought forward as a description of what would tie people from different types of denominational streams. Then, after World War Two, the term evangelical arose once again to you know what could tie together a Billy Graham crusade or campus ministries, or Pentecostals and Presbyterians who have a high view of Scripture, who believe in conversion to Christ, who understand that the gospel has social implications? That’s why it would produce ministries like World Vision, Compassion, World Relief, or International Justice Mission, and all these types of ministries that have it. It’s beating hearts. Some evangelical convictions. What would tie that together? Well, the term evangelical would be used because this is what Jesus did in Luke 4, when the Spirit of the Lord came upon him, he said, I am here to proclaim good news to the poor, freedom for the prisoner, sight for the blind, release for the captive, the year of the Lord’s favor, this holistic understanding of the gospel. So you know, what does it mean to be evangelical in this particular moment? I am praying for and laboring toward a recovery of how the term has often been used in history to describe this surprising, renewing work of God that often results in a holistic transformation. Not just of individual lives, but of movements that would abolish slavery, that would develop initiatives to care for animals, or change child labor practices. It’s just a beautiful, beautiful sense of what evangelical is. It’s, in fact, a vision that we see unfolding all throughout the world of the evangelical church, still doing this work all throughout the world.

Jason Daye
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Jason Daye
Amen. That’s good. I so appreciate, Walter, the breadth and depth of how you approach the idea of evangelicalism because, oftentimes, some people might go back to a certain period in history and then cling to that and say, this is what it means to be evangelical. So the recovery that you speak of, and kind of this renewal, really, I think, for our time and our age, we need to look at the breadth of what that looks like, so we don’t get caught up and hung up on something and start declaring this as evangelical, and miss out on the beauty of all the other elements. It’s interesting, Walter, because in your role, you and your team, obviously, as you share, you’re working with a large spectrum of people, organizations, churches, and denominations, right? When you’re working with the spectrum, there are nuances across that spectrum, right? And differences that are held in non-essential beliefs, perspectives, world views, and all those types of things. I’m curious, Walter, because it’s almost as I’m thinking through it. It’s almost like your role is kind of on the macro level of what many local church pastors are doing on a micro level, right? Their congregations are made up of a spectrum of people who have different beliefs. So I’m curious, Walter, what suggestions, recommendations, what wisdom could you offer a local church pastor who is trying to serve, minister and develop disciples who might be in different places along that spectrum, and they’re trying to wrap their brain around that, and their mind around that, and serve them in such a way. What have you learned as you’re serving a spectrum, a diverse spectrum of organizations and denominations that might be transferable?

Walter Kim
Yeah, I would say, the old adage that if you’re a hammer, you think everything’s a nail, right? That we recognize that we all have a general inclination, disposition, a set of giftings that incline us to a certain way of thinking about, Oh, this is my contribution in ministry. I feel very strongly that this is what the Lord has called me to. But then we think that’s the only tool in the toolbox that’s necessary to build the kingdom of God. But you need a full toolbox. You need screwdrivers. You need the nuts and the bolts. You need wrenches. You just need it all. You need a level. I think in that desire to be strategic and missional, in this desire to have a five-year plan, we sometimes can forget that God has given us, uncomfortably so, a full toolbox, and that full toolbox is going to challenge us. It’s not merely going to be utilized for our own convenience so that we can build a team. I have a number of gifts in order for my agenda to be fulfilled. I think there’s a recognition that no, that tool that doesn’t seem to be fitting into your plan might, in fact, be more important than you realize, because there’s something in your own life that God is working on. Challenging you. A way of seeing the world that you wouldn’t have seen much less been able to serve if that tool weren’t there. So my first piece of advice would be to say, tend to your soul well enough so that you are not threatened when God brings difference into your midst. Expand your vision broad enough to encompass a surprising work of God that doesn’t fit into your five-year plan. Recognize that, to give a fuller picture of who Jesus is and what his mission in the world will be, that you probably have some areas that are missing in your church, and rather than celebrating how you can streamline everything to achieve your very specific goal, perhaps spend some time saying, Lord, what is it that I’m not seeing about who you are and what you’re doing in the world, because I don’t have that part in my church. To seek that out and to say, God, what would you have me be or become or be exposed to? The last thing I would say is, don’t be so internal. Spend some time getting to know your actual community and what their questions are. I was very struck by this. I used to be a pastor in Boston, a very post-Christian, secularized part of the country. Built up this lovely friendship with a neighbor and scientist, and finally got to the point where I think, Okay, I think I could invite this person to church. So, had them over for dinner, and we invited them to church, and she said, Sorry, I can’t come. I’m a scientist. Now we had become friends long enough that I actually understood what she meant. She wasn’t saying, I can’t come to your church because I’m a scientist and I think you all are stupid, and I don’t want to waste my time. She was actually saying it, and she described this a little bit more. She was saying, I don’t want to come to church as a scientist and get you in trouble, because I think my presence as a scientist might get you in trouble. I think, Oh, my goodness, is this what you think of the church that you, as a secular scientist, would be so unwelcome that your mere presence would infect me, your friend? You, out of being a good friend, don’t want to get me in trouble at my church. I don’t think I could have ever read a book that would make the case as compelling as that conversation with my friend in the community. What are the questions in the community that are being asked? The hurts, the pains, the joys, and the hopes that ought to be also part of the toolbox building. Then asking the question, oh, Lord, are we able to reach this community? What language are we not learning? What tool do we not have?

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely love that. I have to say, that’s beautiful, Walter. So the Gen Z’s gotta love that, because that is beautiful when we have that kind of heart and approach. Absolutely love that. Man, this has been such a rich conversation. Thank you so much for sharing with us. I would love to hear, before we close down, what are you really excited about with the National Association of Evangelicals? What are some things that you guys are leaning into that you’re really pumped up about, you’re excited about, and how that might connect with pastors and ministry leaders across the country?

Walter Kim
Yeah, there are two things. We’re just about to launch a five-year campaign called the Gospel Beauty and Breadth campaign. It’s a creative storytelling campaign, where we want to feature the different stories of God at work in the transformation of Christians, individually, churches, corporately, and communities in which they are living and finding creative ways, whether it’s short documentaries, animated features, op-eds in mainstream media outlets, or interviews, we want to raise all boats by putting a spotlight in very different and creative ways on what God is doing all throughout our country, because we’re convinced the good news is still the good news. The second thing is developing public partnerships with Christian churches, denominations, and ministries of, rather than thinking of ourselves as postured in a culture war, there are civic institutions that want to partner with faith-based organizations. I’m going to conclude with just one story. I was at Harvard for a flourishing project. They have this thing called the Harvard human flourishing project, and they were deeply concerned a couple of years ago with the issue of disconnectedness and loneliness, the pandemic of loneliness, the mental health challenges, particularly in Gen Z. So they convened folks, and as an Evangelical, I was somewhat surprised that I was invited to come along, but I was. There was a particular panel that I wasn’t a part of, but it was part of the general session that started going sideways about evangelicals. There were all these, the three panelists, and a couple of them were critiquing evangelicals. The third panelist, who is not a Christian, Jewish by background, I don’t know, practicing or not, said, Let me stop you. Let’s just stop this. What I’m about to say is not going to be popular in secular New England, much less at Harvard. I need to stop you because evangelical churches, according to the data, are one of the best places in America right now for human connection. Cutting across differences, bringing them together in small groups, or whatever those things that evangelicals do. And this is the data that’s leading me to this conclusion. Here he is at Harvard saying this. Evangelicals were leading 100 years ago in putting our country together again. If we’re going to get out of the mess that we’re in right now, we’re going to need the Evangelicals again. I stopped, and I thought, here’s an opportunity to move away from culture warfare, to say, can we partner in good faith ways that does not compromise our deeply held convictions about the Lordship of Jesus Christ, but satisfies the deepest human longings that everyone has, whether it’s secular Boston or elsewhere, for human connection, for dignity, and for meaning in life and work. The two things that I think are going to be quite compelling are this national storytelling initiative, pointing out the stories of God actually changing lives, the beauty and breadth of it. The second thing is finding more creative ways to engage with broad civic institutions, non-Christians, and others for common good transformation that doesn’t compromise our convictions, but actually opens doors to audiences that we would not otherwise have in order to reach them with the gospel.

Jason Daye
That’s awesome, yeah, that’s beautiful. I love that because I encapsulate that’s true, that’s real, that’s good, and that’s beautiful, right? Bringing everyone together. Yeah, I love it, Walter. Oh, this has been such a joy, brother. Thank you so much for making time to hang out with us on FrontStage BackStage. Thank you for all the work that you and your team do. We so appreciate it, and if people want to connect with NAE, the resources, or the things that you have, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Walter Kim
Yeah, that’s great. Thanks for asking. NAE.org Go to our website. There are all sorts of resources there. Happy for you to connect.

Jason Daye
Awesome, brother. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you.

Walter Kim
Thanks, Jason. Thanks for being such a great host.

Jason Daye
Awesome. God bless you

Jason Daye
Here at Pastor Serve, we hope you’re truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage BackStage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you find the show, so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend, and don’t forget our free Toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.