What My Mental Illness Taught Me as a Minister : Scott Box

Full-Text Transcript

What does it look like to minister in the midst of mental illness?

Jason Daye
This week, I’m joined by Scott Box, founder of WorshipHero, as he shares his story of what it looks like when Jesus shows up in the midst of your brokenness. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to FrontStageBackStage. I am your host, Jason Daye. And here we are all about encouraging and equipping pastors just like you to embrace healthy, well-balanced, sustainable leadership for both your life and your ministry. We’re blessed to be a part of the PastorServe network. And you can find information about all of our shows, all of our episodes, and even a free download for a toolkit so that you can dig more deeply into the conversation we’re having today. You can find all that at PastorServe.org/network. So be sure to check that out. And then if you’re joining us on YouTube, we encourage you to give us a like and feel free to comment during our conversation below. And whether you’re on YouTube or joining us on your favorite podcasting platform, be sure to subscribe so that you do not miss out on any of these insightful conversations, like the one that we are having today. I’m super excited to be welcoming Scott Box to join us in today’s conversation. Scott is the founder of WorshipHero and also the author of Heroic Disgrace. And so super excited to have Scott joining us today. Scott, welcome.

Scott Box
Thanks, Jason. Thrilled to be with you, sir.

Jason Daye
Awesome, brother. Now, super excited to hear your story. And that’s really what we’re going to be doing today, we’re going to be hearing your story. You’ve taken the time to, to put it down, pen and paper in this book. And I tell you, I talked to you a little bit before we jumped on how much I appreciate just your willingness to share your journey. And it’s an important journey, I think, not just because it’s you, Scott, and you’re awesome. But just the idea of you sharing the experiences that you’ve had, and the challenges that you’ve had, and how those play into life and how those play into ministry. And so I believe that our conversation is going to be an encouragement to many who are watching along today. So appreciate you being here. Now, Scott, early in your life, you share that you had this kind of idea of being a hero, who is living life as a hero. So talk to us a little bit about kind of your upbringing and these kinds of heroic ideals that you initially had.

Scott Box
Yeah, to say that I was born with it is the truth. It was, it was I was genetically predisposed to heroism. What I eventually call, you know, even even if it wasn’t the most healthy thing, it was the Frankenstein version of it. But I had a family that, that they were public servants and, and even my dad who didn’t, wasn’t in the military and wasn’t a police officer, like earlier generations had been went into Christian higher education and was just a servant, and a statesman. And that’s that’s one of the things that kind of bookend my story with my dad and my journey with him. But there, this idea of heroism is something that well, and here’s the other thing, I’m a firstborn. And so a birth order does play some of this. Some of this as well, I don’t, I don’t know if you can identify, but I’m sure some of the, the audience can identify with that too.

Jason Daye
Right, definitely. So this idea of being a hero, you’re kind of born into it, as you said, you’re kind of living into it as you’re growing up, as you’re experiencing life. And then you begin to experience some things in life that that didn’t seem to completely add up to this idea of being a hero. In fact, some things that might have appeared to be emotional struggles, anxiety, panic, these types of things. Talk to us a little bit about when and how those began to enter into your life and what you began kind of processing as you’re experiencing those things.

Scott Box
Yeah, you bet. So I mean, the first, the first. The first thing is when I started to lose. Like I, I was, I was always the biggest kid I was always winning. And so there was that. And then there was this realization that I was also kind of, kind of, I don’t know, it’s not that age of accountability necessarily thing, theologically. It’s just that sense at one point my life, probably when I was in my teenage years, where I was realizing the seriousness of sin. And, you know, and a lot of that, I’ll just be honest, a lot of that was around the topic of lust, you know, and pornography and all of that stuff just started, that entered into my life. And then later on after meeting my wife and getting married, there was some brokenness that I couldn’t explain. That wasn’t associated, I thought at least, with sin. It was that things up here weren’t right. And, and obviously, that’s, that’s partly why we’re talking. I was in ministry. I believed that I would be in ministry, since I was a little kid. But I was going to be a heroic minister.

Jason Daye
Right, right. I can understand that. What we often envision as we go into ministry that, you know, “we’re going to change the world,” you know. And then God says, “No. Really, I just want you to be faithful.” Yeah, yeah, exactly. Let’s stick with just being faithful. So that’s good. Now, Scott, in your story, you share that whenever you met your wife, and you and Kariann got married, you began to feel this sense that you’re not going to be all that your wife needed in a husband. Or all that maybe she would be expecting for in a husband. Talk to us a little bit about going through that.

Scott Box
Yeah, you bet. So for me, I mean, we joke that the honeymoon lasted about an hour. And, and the truth of the matter is, that’s about as long as it lasted for me. Fear was a real deal for me, Jason. I, I didn’t… and I imagine a lot of us, you know, I’ve heard from other men who are married that they had similar experiences, where it’s like, oh, my gosh, what did I do? You know, I’m stuck now, that that type of thing. Mine wasn’t necessarily that I was stuck. It was that I don’t believe that I can… Ours was connected to our actual honeymoon. The destination was Cabo, Mexico. So we left. We left the states, and we show up in Mexico. And I’m a young man, I’ve never, I mean, I’ve been out of the country a couple of times, but not not on my own. I’ve got this absolutely hot babe on my shoulder, on my elbow, respectfully. But I mean, my word, we get into this cab and, when you leave Cabo, it might be this way today, I haven’t been back. But when you leave the airport, it goes dark. And you’re out on the way to the resorts, but you’re not in the resorts yet. And there was that sense of your God, if this guy tries to pull something, I got nothing in return. I got nothing to defend myself and my wife. And that fear was a really big thing that hit me. It was the closest that I’d gotten to a panic attack. Now that I, on the back end of having had multiple panic attacks, I saw that was the beginning of of those experiences. Started in a cab.

Jason Daye
Wow. Wow. All right. So you’ve talked a little bit about winning a lot and I know in the book, you talk a little bit about the pride behind that. And so the losing piece was the challenge, and now you’re talking a little bit about fear. So we have kind of pride, we have fear… we have these two pieces that are you know, both obviously competing for our headspace and our heart space, right, in the midst of all these things. So talk to us a little bit as you kind of continued as a young man, when did you begin to see some of these things flaring up in, you know, even more pronounced ways in your life. That it became something that you and your wife said, Hey, we need to you know, we need to figure out what this is right.

Scott Box
Rght. So the best, I think the best kind of connection point, Jason, is just to offer up a time period. So I was 25 when things really had ramped up. So Kariann and I were married at 22. I was 22, and she was 20. And so things had progressively been getting more difficult. And when I say difficult, things had gone high and things had gone low. I’ve been diagnosed bipolar, manic depressive. So there we go, I’ll spill the beans. But before diagnosis, during those first two, three years, and then following until, when I was roughly 30, we didn’t have a diagnosis and, and things were progressively getting worse in those highs and those lows. And in particular, one of the things that was, there were two things. One was impulsivity, where I just, I just go off the rails with impulse stuff, self-discipline out the door. And, I mean, I gained tons and tons of weight. Irritation became another giant thing where lights were brighter, sounds were louder. I had to get naked, you know, just get me out of my clothes. Those were, those were things and they felt like giant losses. And, keep in mind that I’m also on platform leading music on a weekly basis. Right. So Kariann and I actually, just to answer your primary question there, I think. We actually didn’t start looking for help. I mean, this, we weren’t stupid, but we didn’t know where where to go, we didn’t know that there was help. We just thought this was normal marriage stuff. This was stuff everybody dealt with, right? So we accidentally, we actually accidentally fell into a counselor. We were looking to adopt a child from Haiti and part of the thing that you had to do is just check the box that you’re mentally stable, to have a child come into your home. And that then after going through that process of trying to find a placement for a child, we ended up not adopting, we ended up being pregnant and starting our own family without going through the adoption process. But that’s how we ended up in a psychologist’s office, who’s become one of our best friends. And about six months into that process. Jason, she just said, you know, Scott, maybe we should go ahead and just pursue a diagnosis and see what that’s like. And I said, Yes. Let’s, let’s go.

Jason Daye
Yeah, so tell me a little bit, what was it like to put a name to or a diagnosis to what you were, you know, wrestling with in life?

Scott Box
It was a blessing. I know, for some people, Jason, it might be like a death blow. You know, and I have to be honest, they weren’t telling me I was terminal, you know. They were telling me, I had a health issue, a mental issue. I had, specifically, chemicals that were imbalanced in my brain. And that when they gave me a name, one, it felt great to have a title for it. Oh, there’s there’s actually, this is called something. And then after that, then there’s also the realization that there’s a strategy, there’s a way forward. Oh, there’s medication. And for the record to the medication component was difficult for me initially, I was not interested in that. And I’d be I’d be happy to talk about that.

Jason Daye
Yes, it’s interesting, Scott, as you are kind of processing through that. And I’m kind of reflecting and thinking about those who might be watching or listening in right now, and who might be going through similar experiences, right, whether or not they’ve been diagnosed. But they’re serving in ministry, you know, they’re in a, you know, a relationship, they’re married, whatever it might be, and they’re experiencing these same types of things, or similar things. What advice do you have now that you’ve kind of, you know, processed through this, you navigated this, you, you went through the ups and the downs, and then, you know, finally came to a point where you received a diagnosis. What advice would you give to someone who is wrestling with all of this themselves or something similar, especially as a pastor or someone in ministry?

Scott Box
Yeah. Oh, I got I got I got one for you. Here’s the thing. This is –I’m so glad you asked that because here’s the miracle of bipolar disorder in my life: I reached the end of myself. And for me, there’s, there’s that sense of desperation that I realized that I was designed to have. I wasn’t, I didn’t just need more of Jesus in my life. Everybody needs a little more Jesus in their life. But that’s the thing. I recognized, we were designed to be desperate for Jesus. And this is this is one of the most revealing things for me, trying to be a self-made hero, trying to be the man that could come through on platform every single stinking weak. And I, I needed to realize I didn’t have to have all the answers. Jesus is supposed to have all those answers. And doggone it, I’m supposed to model that desperation. Because I was designed for it.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s really good. One of the things that you that you share in your book is you say that the stigma associated with mental disorders became more challenging. What do you mean by that? And I think, you know, we could talk a little bit about this, because there is this certain stigma, when it comes to mental disorders, especially the idea of… you know, there’s a term that’s thrown around “unfit for ministry,” right? If someone is unfit for ministry. And sometimes, the idea of a stigma of mental disorder and this idea of being unfit for ministry kind of come together. What were you learning? What were you experiencing? And then what would you share with us? You know, when we’re thinking about and trying to hold those thoughts together?

Scott Box
Gosh, another great question. Thank you. I mean, these are such important questions to dive into. Here’s, here’s my thought. My thought is that, if somebody with a mental illness can model desperation for Jesus, in such a way that another pastor who’s not desperate for Jesus, isn’t modeling that desperation, I’ll go with the guy who’s mentally ill. Right? Because he’s modeling a desperation. He’s model. So so here’s what this did. For me, as a worship leader. I constantly became more and more… I wasn’t disillusioned, but disappointed with the worship that I was leading Jason. I was leading people. I want to be sensitive to this because I’ve done this for 25 years and I’m thankful I don’t have a job that I need. I’m not like, I don’t need to stay on staff at a church. But my point, my point is just that I continually kept going, well, is my music actually changing people’s lives. And I realized that there’s a place for music in the church. But ultimately, what I realized as a worship leader, is that if worship is not a lifestyle, then what the heck am I doing? If I’m not actually guiding people, toward a better witness, then my worship leading is probably close to worthless? I mean, just being honest, right? This was one of the big revelations. And that then was that sense of like, okay, this is so upside down. I used to think I needed to be this certain type of hero. I used to think that I was too broken to be this, this type of leader. And then Jesus comes along, and in my pursuit and reflection of him. And he goes, guess what, I got you. Right, right. This is how you can lead worship, in a way that actually is more akin to the way that I lived my worship, Scott. This is Jesus going I modeled worship, by by pursuing the Father by reflecting the father in everything.

Jason Daye
That’s, yeah, I love that. And as you were talking there, Scott, I couldn’t help but think of, you know, this idea of, as Paul wrote, the idea that in my weakness is where we see the strength of Christ, right? And so in my brokenness is where we can really see the visible activity of the Spirit of God at work in my life. And it sounds from your story that your experience with mental disorder, bipolar, you know, being bipolar, was this idea that you could stop trying to be the hero. Right? And that you could rest in the grace and the mercy and the goodness of Jesus… let him be the hero through you, let him be magnified through your brokenness. Is that what the experience has been for you?

Scott Box
Yes. And I want to be very clear too, that this idea of, it still needs to be active. I can’t just be passive in this. I have to, I have to recognize, and I have. I’ve recognized that we are… let me put it this way: I’m proof that God makes healthy what he doesn’t heal. Now, I believe God, can heal me. I absolutely believe that. But I also believe he probably won’t. And the reason is, because I’ve seen that through my pain, right? His he’s, I wouldn’t need him if I didn’t have bipolar disorder, I’d fall back on my own stupid definition of heroism again. I know I would. And so I think that’s part of this journey as a Christian leader, that I’ve realized, too, is I’m not just talking about mental health, either. I’m talking about body health and spiritual health. And that that idea of that that tripod, if you will, if you kick out one of those legs, yeah, you are unhealthy. But the other component is, even if you’re unhealthy, or struggle with an illness, in one area, you can be healthy in the other areas. And that’s been such a… there’s been so much freedom in that, Jason.

Jason Daye
Yeah. No, no, I can see that. And I love the fact that you brought up that idea of healing, because one of the things that you write about in the book is this idea where you come to this point, you know, with with your, with your doctor and your team, about that idea of managing versus healing. Where you realize that as you said, Yes, God could heal me in a moment, but my experience is more for me. And it’s not unlike many, many other people. You know, I mean, people, some people get healed of mental illness or physical illness, some people do not, right. It’s one of the mysteries of God, which we accept and we live into. But for you, it was this idea of, of managing your mental disorder. So talk to us a little bit about that idea, first of all, kind of coming to terms with that, and then proactively what does that look like for you, as you are seeking to honor God, you know, not only in your family, but also you know, in this idea of ministry?

Scott Box
Yeah. management is the key, self-discipline for all of us, right, is critical. And I know that now more than ever, after having lived with a diagnosis for 15 years. Management is the key. I and this is one of the cool things about my journey with my medical team, pardon me, is that we, we designed some things with Karriann, my wife, in the room, like we’ve always done counseling together. There, there have been two, three rare occasions where I needed a 911, just show up and talk to the counselor on my own. But this idea of management has included her. There have been these, I don’t even remember what we call it. But the best way to explain it is chunking. We just take chunks of the day, and I know I have to have to brush my teeth three times a day. I know I have to drink a gallon of water. I could do it all before bed, that would be really stupid. But I need to do that every day. You know, I need to get 30 to 90 minutes of exercise and so that I’m not 300 pounds anymore, and I don’t have to deal with sleep apnea or you know, acid reflux that destroys my vocal cords. These are management things that I’ve… and here’s the intersection for me of, of mental illness and worship. What I’ve recognized is that my mental illness gave me a pathway to understanding worship earlier, or maybe better, than I would have had I not been, or struggled with mental disorder. It forced my lifestyle to get fixed. It forced a desperation upon Jesus that I never would have had. That. I hope I’m circling back around. ,

Jason Daye
Yeah, definitely. And what I love about that, Scott is you kept talking about, you know, the backstage of your life, you’re talking about this idea of being intentional about who I am, you know, being intentional about tending to my physical health, tending to my mental health, my emotional health, all those pieces… my key relationships and relationship with with my family. So, and what we see, and we see all too often in the church world, unfortunately, is oftentimes a pastor or minister can look good on the front stage, right, and kind of keep things rolling along on the front stage, but backstage can be a mess. And at some point, that catches up. And that’s when people get hurt and you know, people become much more vulnerable to, you know, devastation of sin and whatever else might come with that. So, I love, you know, one of the things that’s fascinating about your story is I love the fact that your diagnosis helped you, as you said, kind of become more aware, and more cognizant of the need to –which all of us need– to be focusing on our own soul care, to be focusing on our own lives and how we relate to those around us and what that looks like. So what are some of the –as you’ve processed through this and work through this– what are some of the practices, even like spiritual practices, maybe, because I know that you spent a lot of time especially in your ministry, kind of focusing on this idea of, you know, reflecting Jesus and those types of things. So talk to us a little bit about those spiritual practices and what worship really has become and what you’ve learned about worship.

Scott Box
I think that witness, Jason, is far more connected to worship than we give credit. give it credit for. In other words, even within us as pastors, we use the phrase worship and we mean music, we mean song time at church, we just do. And, or, or it’s, we put it up on on the reader boards that our church by the way, I hate reader boards anyway. But it says Worship 10am. And you’re like, Ah, okay, worship? Witness witness is so… Jesus modeled a witness, a lifestyle, that we must teach as worship. And I’m 45 years old, I am right on that, that area of I will be replaced by the next generation very, very soon. And it’s just, it’s the way that it works. You know, there’s always a younger generation, who’s sexier, you know, that, and our voices wear out, and you know, we’re just not cool anymore. And churches they spit us, chew us up, spit us out, I get it. And I am really close friends with numerous pastors, worship pastors, who are no longer pastors anymore. And, and that has devastated me, because I didn’t want to be one of those guys. And I had, I recognized, and this isn’t a slam against them, I just recognized, I think there’s something that we’re missing in our worship, that if, if I, if all I do is connect my worship, my music with my worship, and when we worship with my music, then yeah, I’ve I need to become more. I need I need to understand worship at the level Jesus modeled it. And so that then has, I think, back to your question, you might have to remind me or re-steer me, but that has ordered the life that I’ve lived, it’s, it drove me to trying to create, to create a ministry, and I’m still trying to figure this out. But how can we harness our witness as worship leaders and then elevate ourselves so that we can leave worship in a in a more healthy place for the next generation than it was left to us? Wow. And I say Jason, there is this aspect then of being able to, I want to turn this back over to you, but being able to harness our stories, and create storytellers, rather than just singers.

Jason Daye
Oh, that’s good. Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. Scott, talk to me a little bit about, you know, what encouragement would you have, reflecting on this growth of the idea of worship, you know, that you’ve experienced, and this heart for wanting to, as you’re maybe exiting out of your season of ministry, leaving it better for the generation coming behind, those types of things? What encouragement would you have for pastors who are kind of processing through that and thinking about their, you know, all of us, we have a, you know, we have an expiration date, right, there’s going to be a time when we aren’t doing what we’re doing now. So, so you seem to have thought through this and processed through this to a great degree. So what advice or encouragement would you have for pastors who are doing something similar?

Scott Box
The other day I was in the gym. And it’s, it’s, it’s really cool. Because there’s a gym that focuses most on classes, so and I don’t, I don’t do classes, so I’ll show up midday when they don’t do classes, and they’ve got… it’s an empty gym, which is super cool because I don’t have to talk to people and put my headphones on listen to, listen to you, Jason. You know, this is what I like to do when I’m working out. Anyhow, I run into, so I’m on the rowing machine and this body just shows up off to the right side. And it just keeps kind of getting closer. And next thing I know I’m being hugged. And there’s a story as to why I’m being hugged, which is kind of irrelevant to this. But there’s a dude invading my space, who is a great friend that didn’t care about the personal bubble, obviously. And then he, he and I proceed to start talking. And I’m looking at his eyes. And he’s got the brightest yellow eyes. It’s actually hard to look at. He’s got liver failure, he’s going through the stages of liver failure, right? And there was this sense of, oh man. So he’s hugging me and he’s just kind of down. I’m going somewhere with this. He was defeated. And I don’t know if he thinks he’s at the end of his life. He might be, he probably is. But as we talked, I felt the Spirit. I don’t want to over spiritualize this, I felt this sense that my friend needed to hear that this was his moment. That this is your moment. This pain that you’re going through, this is your witness. This is your opportunity to worship. This is this is your moment of heroism. And maybe you’ve had other moments. But for goodness sakes, your ministry does not stop when the door of the church, if you will, the church building hits you on the backside on your way out. Or even if you leave in a good, awesome way, you know, which is I know, difficult. That often doesn’t happen. Many of us leave and just get smoked and part of that’s on us. But But ministry does not must not end even when our eyes are stinking yellow. Yeah, that’s my encouragement. Tell your story to the bitter end, or the most amazing end.

Jason Daye
Whichever it may be, yeah.

Scott Box
Whatever it may be, because it’s not bitter. This is why I do feel, Jason, this sense that if worship is not connected to eternity in some capacity, if our sense of worship is not connected to eternity, it is incomplete.

Jason Daye
Yeah, no, that’s, that’s good. That’s good. We certainly appreciate your insights, especially on worship and what God has taught you as you’ve been on this amazing journey. Just as we kind of close down, just to bring this this full circle a little bit. Pastors and ministry leaders who might be wrestling with their own mental disorder, their own mental illness. What would you say to them right now?

Scott Box
I think one of the universal truths that we all can struggle with is that it can become too late. I know we don’t like to deal with that. But the reality is that in life, things can become too late to change, too late to get healthy. And my encouragement to your audience, to our audience right now is to recognize that truth, and to fight for health. Because God will, God will give you health. Even if healing doesn’t come, even if healing is the most absurd impossibility, health, in some capacity is always an option. And finally, I’ll say this, even if you’ve had your dreams crushed, you can grieve those dreams, but not for too long. Dream new dreams.

Jason Daye
That’s awesome. I love it because you’re kind of a living testament to how God shows up in the midst of that brokenness, right, in the midst of you know, your ideal of what it was going to mean to be a hero, you know, and how that kind of faded away, but then you experienced something much more incredible, something you never would have imagined, as you allowed Jesus to be the hero of your life and to to shine that light, not only in you, but through you. So that’s beautiful, Scott, love that. Scott, if people want to connect with you, your ministry, learn more about your book, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Scott Box
HeroicDisgrace.com is where you can find me and I do most of my communication on Facebook at WorshipHero. So there you go, it’d be great to connect, I finally want to say just one thing, I am humbled by this opportunity to share. I do not have this figured out and I would love it, if we could journey together and join in this adventure together. This has been amazing, Jason, thank you.

Jason Daye
That’s awesome. Scott, I certainly appreciate that. And we’ll have links to everything that Scott mentioned, and resources. And you can find all of that at PastorServe.org/network, where you can actually download our weekly toolkit that actually helps you and your ministry team dive more deeply into this conversation that Scott and I just had. So that’ll be available to you there as well. So once again, we thank you, Scott, for hanging out with us, sharing your story, thank you for your transparency and your openness. And for the opportunity, you have to just declare how good God is in the midst of things that we could say, we’re going to throw in the towel, and you know, and just live in a state of, you know, life just isn’t good enough. Instead, you allowed Jesus to come in in a powerful way and take you to an experience that you never dreamed you’d have. So that is just… I love just the redemption story of God. God is a redeemer, and that’s what he does. And you’ve shared that so much in your own life. So thank you for taking the time to be with us, Scott, we appreciate it.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.