When Good Intentions Take Control : Lysa TerKeurst

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. If you’re joining us for the first time, welcome, and if you’ve been on the journey with us for a long time, welcome back. Every single week, I have the privilege of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and together we tackle a topic to help you, and pastors and ministry leaders just like you, really thrive in both life and leadership. And we are blessed to be a part of the ministry of PastorServe. This week, I’m really excited to be welcoming back a guest that our audience really, really loves. In fact, this is a favorite of audiences around the world; it’s none other than Lysa TerKeurst. Now, Lysa is the president and chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries. She’s written a number of New York Times bestsellers, and her latest book is entitled Making Peace with What I Can’t Control. At this time, I’d like to welcome Lysa back to the show. Lysa, welcome to FrontStage BackStage.

Lisa TerKeurst
Well, hello. So good to be with you again. Thank you.

Jason Daye
Yes, Lysa. So good to have you. Now, we’re going to be talking about the topic that you tackle in your newest book, Making Peace with What I Can’t Control, and that is the topic of control. And for all of us in ministry, it’s interesting because the idea of control is one of those things that we all must face as we serve in ministry. Because those of us who lead are supposed to take responsibility. We care about people, Lysa. We are supposed to anticipate problems. We are supposed to make wise decisions. We steward what God has entrusted to us. So, Lysa, how do we know when healthy responsibility has quietly crossed over into control?

Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah. Well, a big word that we have to think about is outcome. So when we’re in responsible mode, we are going to do everything we can that is within our ability to manage what we can manage, okay? We’re going to be faithful. We’re going to be obedient to the Lord. We’re going to do the responsible things. We’re going to be capable people. We’re going to be caring people, all of that. But regarding the outcome, the ultimate outcome, how things turn out, we’re going to release that to the Lord. We’re going to trust Him with that. If we’re in control mode, then we’re going to do everything we can do to manage what is within our ability to manage, and we’re also going to try to manage things that are outside of our control. We’re going to try to fix other people. We’re going to try to control the narrative, control their emotions. We’re going to try to do everything we can do to make sure things go in the direction that we think is best. Because regarding the outcome, we’re only willing to accept the outcome that we think is best. So there’s this paper-thin line. I think a lot of people assume that control, at the heart of it, is a power issue. I don’t think that’s it. I think those of us who struggle with control the most are the ones who are responsible, capable, and caring. So it’s easy to cross over that line, but the secret word to really look at is: Do I feel that I have the power to control the outcome, or have I matured to the place where I can release the final outcome to the Lord?

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s good, and I want to kind of stick a pin in outcomes because I love to come back to that. Because there are some things in the book Making Peace with What I Can’t Control that you really dive into, and there’s something that’s really kind of juicy that we’re going to get to, that when I read it, it just kind of really grabbed me, and I want to get to that. But before we get there, Lysa, because you touched on this as well, are there things going on inside of us that we can think about? Like, what’s going on inside of us whenever we’re wrestling with this idea of control? What’s going on within?

Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah, so I would say that fear plays a big part in it, even if we don’t call it fear. You see, fear is often what we feel when control tendencies start to emerge in our lives, and fear is really, I think, a huge driving factor for a lot of us. And it’s not even like, oh my gosh, I’m so afraid. But it’s, I’ve chased this down, I’ve mentally run ahead of it, and if I don’t do something, who will? And I’m not sure that I can trust other people to do things as right as I do things, or everything depends on me. You know, it’s all these narratives that we have in our heads, like I’m the one who holds it all together. Without me, everything will fall apart. If I don’t control this, then it’s going to come back to hurt me in the future. If I don’t try to fix this person, then when they suffer, I’m going to suffer. My only hope for any of this to get better is if I keep working on it. So see, there’s all these narratives, and none of those implicitly use the word fear. It’s just that fear is often a driving force for some of the narratives that we have.

Jason Daye
Yeah, it’s interesting because there’s a lot of, I mean, as you’re going through that list of what we’re replaying in our minds, there’s that fear. It seems to be a lot of anxiety as well, driven by those anxious thoughts of things falling apart, especially when we’re in a role in ministry where we feel like there’s so much riding on it, and we tend to put that on our own shoulders oftentimes, right? So there’s this anxiety, underlying anxiety, that we often are running with because we feel like there is this weight that is sitting on our shoulders. Because there are eternal consequences, and we put that on ourselves, right?

Lisa TerKeurst
Oh yeah, I often think of anxiety as energy with no place to go, and what I mean by that is that when our worst struggle is that a saber-toothed tiger is going to come after us, or whatever, we feel fear. Fear is sometimes a really good thing to feel because it’s a warning. It’s a good warning. And so, if we were being chased by a tiger, we would feel the fear, and then we would exert energy to get away. But what happens to us now is that there are things that we fear, and there’s this energy to get away, but we can’t get away because we’re not running away from a tiger. We’re kind of stuck in this situation, or we’re dealing with things where it’s not going to help to exert energy, and so that unused energy presents itself as anxiety, and that’s the way I’ve always thought of it. It’s like my anxiety is a whole lot of energy with no place to go, and it’s just like my engine is revving, but I can’t figure this out. Like, I don’t know what to do with this. And so that, for me, is often how those two things work together.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. So, we have these kinds of underlying fears and anxieties that are kind of bubbling up within us. But, Lysa, I think one of the things that can make this sort of tricky in ministry is that control can often look like or disguise itself as diligence, right? Because we’re planning ahead, we’re trying to solve problems, and we’re trying to protect people. We’re trying to do all these good things, these positive things, because we’re leading, we’re serving. So, how can we better navigate that? How can we understand that control can be especially difficult for capable leaders, and can be especially difficult for us to recognize that in ourselves?

Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah, I think the tricky part is being a diligent person, being a responsible person, being a capable person, being a planner, and a thinker, and a doer, and all that; those are all great qualities. Those are qualities that you want in a leader. What I’m hoping with my book is that it will help create within each of us more self-awareness, so that we can pick up on, Oh, this is where I’m stepping over into control. So, let me give you a couple of practical examples of that. So if someone is working for you and you sense that they’re having a bad day, if you’re a caring leader, then you’re going to want to kind of help pep-rally them past this bad day. But that’s really you trying to manage someone else’s feelings because them having a bad day is making you feel uncomfortable, and so if you’re trying to pep-rally them, like No, no, no, we’re not sad. We’ve got so many reasons to be grateful, or no, no, no, all work is hard, so just press through, and the accomplishment’s going to make you feel better. It’s so subtle, but we can bring that person a coffee and say, Hey, I know you’re having a bad day, a hard day, or whatever. Maybe this will help brighten it. Then walk away. But when we start trying to pep-rally people past their emotions, we want them to kind of spiritually bypass what they’re probably trying to work through. That’s where we’ve stepped over from being caring to being controlling. Another place that I see with a lot of leaders is trying to control the narrative. Like, there’s something happening, and we have a story in our brain. And when somebody comes in, and their narrative is different, it’s so tempting to want to step in and correct the narrative to be in alignment with our true intentions, our true heart. And while it’s not a bad thing to go to those people and say, Hey, are you open to a thought? You know, I want to share my true intention here. That’s not a bad thing. That’s a good thing. And if they’re open to a thought, then share it. But what is wrong is when we start rallying other people to support us, so that the narrative can be corrected and aligned with us. And again, this is really tricky because, of course, that’s what we want. But at the end of the day, we cannot control what other people think. We cannot control what other people say. We cannot control what they do. So the big word here is: if we can get to a place of acceptance, when we’ve done what we can do to correct a wrong narrative, then regarding the outcome of whatever happens from here, we have to accept that we’re ultimately not in control of what other people say, what they think, what they do, and that is super hard, but it is a sign of maturity.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends! Just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation, as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Yeah, and on that note, Lysa, we all know that with people, I mean, in ministry, pastors, ministry leaders, they spend their lives caring for people, right? Hoping people will change. In that situation you just gave, the reality is that that person, their narrative may never change, or their thoughts. Their lives may never change. And even though every pastor knows that we ourselves cannot change people, we still so badly want to, right? We’ve all journeyed with someone who we’ve worked with, we prayed with, we’ve discipled, and still, we see that we don’t have the ability to change them. Only God can change them. So how do we continue loving, leading, pouring into, and speaking truth to people without moving over into that control, that taking uber-responsibility for whether they actually change? Because that is something that all of us in ministry, we know God changes them, but we struggle with that fine line, as you’ve talked about.

Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah, so we need to remember that we can do our part but we cannot do the Lord’s part and what I mean by that is that what that person really needs is a heart change, and if they’re unwilling or incapable of making that heart change, then us trying to rescue them from suffering the consequences of their choices may be us getting in the way of the Lord having the hardship in their life be the very thing that drives them to Him, and so I think we just have to be careful to recognize that we can do our part. We can share the good news. We can care for them. You know, we can be there for them. But if they make choices that have consequences attached to those. We can’t step over and start being their savior. They have a savior, but it’s not us. Now we can help them. There’s a big difference between someone making a mistake and someone having a pattern of behavior. If somebody makes a mistake, great. You you have it to give to step in and rescue them. Rescue them, but don’t let that be the pattern of the relationship or the pattern of the help, because the way that it works, and honestly, so many of us have gotten burned by this in ministry. If we take our help too far and we become a constant rescuer in their life, the minute that we finally say no more to them is the minute we’re going to be the perpetrator. It’s called the victim triangle, and it’s a really powerful thing to study, especially for leaders in ministry, because if you’ve ever had a situation where someone loves you until they hate you, you’ve probably gotten caught in the victim triangle with them. And so again, the secret is. We can be a help, and and rescuing them one time, fine. You know that’s that’s not a bad thing, but don’t let that become the pattern of the relationship or the pattern of the help you’re trying to give.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s helpful, Lysa. The title of the book is Making Peace with What I Can’t Control, and I’d love for you to speak in specifically around this, because a lot of us in ministry, we’ve all journeyed with different seasons of ministry with someone who God has really put on our heart, right? And we’re journeying with them, and we’re discipling them, and we’re seeing the pain in their lives again and again and again, right? We’ve all had this person in their life. Everyone watching, everyone listening, a name has come to mind, right? You’re joining with this person, you’re pouring into them, and they’re on this journey. They’re contained to self sabotage or whatever it is, and at some point, we have to make peace, and that is so hard because our heart is so tied to this person, and our heart is breaking over this person again and again and again. Lisa, how do we begin to make peace with that? Because we so want that person to find their own peace with Christ, right?

Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah, absolutely. I’m going to give you two key phrases that I’ve learned that are very important to remember in a situation like this. And the two key phrases are: Are you open to a thought? And the second one is: Okay. And here’s how it plays out. You know, part of our angst is that we are applying the wisdom that we’ve collected over years and years and years of serving the Lord, studying God’s word, and all of that. Or it’s like if I’m sharing wisdom with one of my adult children. I have 57-year-old wisdom. That’s the lens through which I’m looking at their 20 and 30-year-old issues. I have really good kids. They’re amazing kids, but I’m always looking at things from a different vantage point because I have more maturity, more experience, and more wisdom in that area. And that’s the same if it’s spiritual maturity; it’s the same dynamic. And so, what causes me angst is I know I have wisdom that can help them, and there’s nothing wrong with me wanting to share that wisdom. But they’ve got to want to receive it. And when we share it, we have to share it with no strings attached. And what I mean by that is this is how it works: if we’re not controlling, but we do want to help them, we go to them and ask, Are you open to a thought? And we share what we want to share: the wisdom, the suggestions, or whatever. But then, when they make their decision, and especially if their decision is the opposite of what we were hoping they would do, at that point the signal that we can be brave enough to release them to the Lord is when we say back to them, Okay. And what we’re saying to them is, I’ve shared my wisdom, but I’m not going to chase you down. We see this with Jesus and the rich young ruler. We see this with Jesus with a lot of people, but I love that story especially because I would be so tempted, if I were Jesus, to chase that man down as he’s walking away, or to shift things to make it easier for him to receive the gift that I’m trying to give him, but that’s not what Jesus does. Jesus shares all that he can share, and when that man makes his decision, it implies that Jesus said, Okay, that’s his decision. And I like referring back to that story because sometimes I think we feel responsible to make sure that person is okay, and that’s not our responsibility. We can be responsible, we can be capable, and we can be caring, but we cannot be their savior, and that’s a tough thing.

Jason Daye
Yeah, no, that’s really good. Really, really good. And that kind of circles back around to the beginning of our conversation, the outcomes piece, and all of this does. You know, this idea of control, which I love, and you write in the book a lot about this idea of surrendering outcomes. And as I was reading through, I believe, and I kind of wonder if one of the hardest things for ministry leaders is not just surrendering people, but surrendering the outcomes. We pray for growth, we pray for transformation, we pray for the fruit, the healing, and the reconciliation. We pray for impact in our ministry. We pray for all of these things, and we give our lives to these things. Lysa, at what point does a good desire for an outcome become an unwillingness to accept an outcome different from the one we believe is best? You know, that struggle between what we think needs to happen and just receiving what God knows needs to happen.

Lisa TerKeurst
Well, one of my favorite parts of the book is when I talk about the story of Judas.

Jason Daye
This was the juicy detail. Just so you know, when I said there’s a juicy detail, when I read this, I was like, Whoa! I love this. So let’s get into it.

Lisa TerKeurst
I don’t like to admit that there’s a part of me that’s like Judas, but I have to acknowledge it because it’s this very struggle you just described. So we can debate all day long the character flaws of Judas, and was he greedy? It seems like it. Was he, you know, all of these different things? But at the end of the day, I think what Judas was really struggling with is that he saw the Roman oppression, and he wanted Jesus to rise up and become that king who put justice in place and freed the people at the time from the oppression that the Romans were putting them under, and it was a lot. It was very, very hard. And so Judas had a genuine desire that seemed good to him. He had an outcome in his mind that he really felt like was the best outcome. And what Jesus had in mind is that Jesus was going to be a king and free people from oppression. But Jesus had eternity in mind, and Judas had circumstantial situations in mind. And so, in that, I don’t think Judas had bad intentions. I think he was trying to force Jesus’s hand to follow the plan that he felt was best. And so, at the Last Supper, Jesus announces that someone’s going to betray him. One of his close disciples is going to betray him, and as the disciples debate this around the table, they’re saying, Not me, Lord! Not me, Lord! Not me, Lord! But when it gets to Judas, he says, Not me, Rabbi. And it really struck me that his thought of Jesus was not that Jesus is Lord of his life, but rather, Jesus is a guide or a teacher, which is what a rabbi is. So Jesus doesn’t have the ultimate authority. Jesus just has some good suggestions, you know? And when that was his mentality, then he decided he would force the outcome that he wanted by betraying Jesus, and he thought that when the Roman soldiers arrested Jesus and put him on trial, he really thought that that would make Jesus rise up and fight for what Judas wanted Jesus to fight for, and that is immediate relief right now. And when Jesus didn’t do that, when Jesus held fast to the outcome that he knew was best in the grand scheme of things, Judas was overwhelmed with his choice. He tried to give the money back; they wouldn’t accept it, and then that led to his demise, and he eventually took his own life. So very, very sad. But when I look at that story, I think to myself, there’s a challenge here for me. Do I see Jesus as Lord of my life? And even when situations in my life don’t go in the direction that I think they should go in right now, am I willing to trust that God is good and He sees a bigger picture that I can’t discern? And that’s where my trust in Him has to fill that gap of angst and being uncomfortable. Or am I going to be like Judas and say, nope, my plan is best, and I’m going to do everything I possibly can, and anything is justifiable as long as I can get to this good outcome? And that’s a real challenge that I think a lot of us need to think about, and kind of a good biblical lesson to challenge us on the way we view the good direction that we think things should go in. And it’s not that Judas’s thought was bad; it’s that he took his efforts too far and tried to control the play, and that’s where he got in trouble.

Jason Daye
At PastorServe, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders just like you. If you want to learn more about how you can qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. You don’t want to miss out on this opportunity. That’s PastorServe.org/freesession.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely. I thought that section of the book, Lysa, that was the section of the book that just blew me away, honestly. I absolutely loved it. Thank you for that because it was so fascinating to see that, as you said, Judas was caught up in the outcome, and that’s where he began to get caught up in controlling the outcome instead of sitting back and allowing Jesus, focusing in on Jesus and allowing Jesus to deal with the outcome. But just focusing in on Jesus and journeying and walking alongside Jesus and leaving the outcome up to Jesus, trusting that Jesus knew best, right? And in our own leadership, the temptation for us, too, is to kind of rush ahead and think, okay, this outcome should be good, and that’s what all of us in ministry tend to get caught up in the idea that we want to have that big impact. We want to see many people come to Christ. We want to see the positive impact of all of that. And so sometimes we can try to short-circuit what God ultimately wants to do, and he knows is best, and we can press ahead. So, Lisa, I think the question I have on this particular piece is: How can we be self-aware so that we do not go down the path of Judas, so that we do not get so caught up in the outcome ourselves and what we think would be best, that we go down that path? What are some checks and balances, maybe in our own lives, so that we’re not slipping into that control, control, control?

Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah, I think that’s such a good question, and that’s really the very reason why I wrote Making Peace with What I Can’t Control, is because it’s not that we want to get this wrong; it’s that we’re often not aware of the clues that we’re stepping from being a responsible, capable, caring person to being a controlling person. So I think that when people read this book, there are so many checklists, there are so many bullet points that kind of give your brain a place to go, Okay, let me just examine some things about myself in the quietness of this book, where no one’s pointing a finger at me and accusing me of anything, but rather, I can come up with this myself. Like I can become more self-aware, and that’s really the key to making positive changes. But we also have to really consider what our motivation is behind control, because sometimes our motivations aren’t bad. Just like Judas, his motivation, in some way, was not necessarily bad. Like he really, I believe he really did want to free people, but he had a lot of entanglements that led him into controlling tendencies. But I talk about how there are some longings that people have that we really need to pay attention to because these can become motivations to want to control. So one of them is prevent. I control because I want to stop what I fear may happen. Another one is protect. I control because something is happening, and I want to make sure it doesn’t get worse. Another one is pretend. I control because by sweeping things under the rug, I don’t have to deal with hard realities. Or I prepare. Preparing is not a bad thing. I control because I never want to get caught off guard, and I want to have a plan for every bad thing that could happen. And so, there are several of these that continue on in the book. But I think just those things alone help ease the angst because oftentimes when we hear somebody has controlling tendencies, we think, Oh, that’s really terrible. Don’t have controlling tendencies because controlling leaders have such a bad rap, you know? But oftentimes our motivation is not power. Our motivation is to protect. Our motivation is to predict. Our motivation is to prevent. So good motives, but we’re playing it out wrongly. And so I think that’s the real reason that I wrote Making Peace with What I Can’t Control, not because I have personally perfected this. I don’t write from like, ta-da! Like I’m so good with this. But my good friend Dr. Joel Muddamalle gave me some wisdom recently, and it really does apply to this. What we practice, we get better at. And so, if we’re not aware, and we continue to have controlling practices, then we’re going to get better and better and better at controlling, and that will become our modus operandi. But if we practice being responsible, being capable, being caring without stepping over into being controlling, then we’re going to get better and better and better at really having a life where we release and surrender the outcome to the Lord. And we’re still responsible for all of that, but we will practice having the peace that comes from accepting hard realities. Hoping for the best, but willing to trust God with whatever the situation is. And I know some people will hear this word surrender and they’ll think like ah you know surrender, that means giving up. But let me give you a couple of things. Surrender is not ignoring reality. Surrender is not bypassing the pain. Surrender is not giving into the feeling that your circumstances are hopeless. That’s not surrender. Surrender is yielding your need to control the outcome. It’s releasing your grip so that God can lead, and it’s acknowledging that only God can carry the weight of how things turn out. And we need to stop swimming in this sea of anxiety and pressure, and turning into someone that we really don’t want to be because we think that we can take on the weight of the world and not have it crush us. But, we’ve got to learn to trust God and to be obedient, even when it doesn’t make sense to us.

Jason Daye
Yeah, and I absolutely love, Lysa, that posture of surrender because it’s actually very freeing. It’s not like you’re giving up something and oh shucks, right? No, it’s like I’m giving up something, thank God, you know? It’s a load off, right? The idea of that surrender is oh, how relieving and how freeing is it that we don’t have to carry that load?

Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah. Let me give you a good example, just in a practical everyday sense. So, one of my dearest friends, her name is Leah, and I actually dedicated this book to her. Leah has been by my side in the writing of all my books. She’s the one who keeps up with the schedule and makes sure that I don’t lose chapters after I write them. She keeps the master document in her computer. She helps me edit and all that kind of stuff. So we processed this message a lot, and we were talking about, one day, an experience that she had where her dad got very sick and got diagnosed with having a brain tumor, and then sadly, after a really really valiant battle, he passed away from brain cancer. And it sent Leah, that experience sent her, into this spiral of like when was the day that her dad ate something that eventually those consequences played out that gave him brain cancer. Or did he stand behind a bus too long and breathe those fumes and that was the start that eventually played out to where he got brain cancer? And so it gave her this feeling that she has to protect her kids at all costs. And so, to be responsible, she watches what they eat. She’s very careful with the cleaning products she uses and all of this stuff. All of those are good, responsible choices, right? But one day she shared with me how she was. It was creating a lot of tension within the family because if anybody deviated from her plan, it really angered her and frustrated her, and so it was creating some tension there. And so I asked her this question. I said, Leah, are you trying to keep your kids healthy? Feed them healthy things and use healthy cleaning products? Are you trying to keep your kids healthy, or are you trying to prevent cancer? Because it is within your control. It’s responsible to keep your kids healthy. It is outside of your control if anyone else that you love gets cancer. So you can do what you can do, but when you step over into trying to do things that are beyond your control, that’s where you start robbing yourself and those around you of peace.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And when you begin to think through that line of control in really practical ways, it helps you figure out how to navigate the way that you serve, the way that you lead, and the way that you interact with those around you. Because this does-I mean, just that example. This does have real consequences relationally. When we think about ministry, everything is really relational when it comes to ministry. And so, when you can begin to pull back and think through, what are the impacts this has on our team, our ministry team? What impact does this have on how we’re engaging with the community, engaging with our congregation, or those whom we’re serving? It does make a big difference. It does have a really huge impact. As we’re winding down this conversation, it’s absolutely fantastic because I think this is one of those key areas that so many of us in ministry, again, thinking about the responsibility of ministry and how that can shift over into control. For a pastor or ministry leader, Lysa, who’s listening, who’s watching along right now, who may be feeling some of the exhaustion, because deep down somewhere they might be wrestling with this whole idea of I have this responsibility. If I’m not, as you said earlier, if I’m not holding this together, who will? If I’m not making sure everything’s pieced together it could all fall apart. If they’re feeling that exhaustion, if they’re struggling with that surrender that you described just a few moments ago, what would you want to share with them?

Lisa TerKeurst
I would say the quickest route to burnout is not tending well to this very topic. Because when we carry a weight that we were never supposed to carry, it will crush our motivations and our pure intentions quicker than just about anything else. And it’s really easy to get caught in that place. And again, I’ve been there. And I think any leader who’s really honest, especially a leader where you’ve helped grow an organization or start an organization, I just say to have a lot of grace for the mistakes that you’ve made in the past. I have a lot of grace for mine. There were times that I refused to put the phone down because I felt like I have to handle this and I have to handle it now, or I refused to delegate something because I thought I could do it better. I refused to sometimes let things be good enough, and instead expected that I had to spend all the extra time to make sure they were perfect. Those are hard things to acknowledge, but it’s okay to have grace for yourself and the mistakes you’ve made in the past. But let this be your aha moment. Let this be your rally cry that if you want to stay in this thing for a long time, if you really want to help impact people, if you really, really have a heart to see people come to know the Lord, then one fruit of His Spirit operating properly in us is self-control. And when we try to control things outside of our control, we will start to lose all control, and we will stop being self-controlled. And there’s nothing more unattractive in a leader than a leader who doesn’t exercise self-control.

Jason Daye
Love it, absolutely love it. Lysa, it’s always a joy to have you here on FrontStage BackStage. Those of you who are watching or listening along, Lysa’s most recent book, Making Peace with What I Can’t Control, is absolutely, I feel like a must-read for those of you who are serving. Whether you’re serving a local church or another ministry organization. Every leader, as Lysa shared, and even in this conversation we’ve had, all of us wrestle with responsibility and how that can seep over into control. This book has so many great insights around this. Super, super helpful. So, for this episode and every episode, we have a toolkit that complements it. You can find that at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit you’ll find links directly to Lysa’s book, Making Peace with What I Can’t Control. You’ll also find a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide in there, just insights from our conversation today, along with questions that you can go through, and you can take your leadership team at your church or your ministry through that to dig more deeply into this conversation. Super helpful resource for you. Absolutely free. Find that at PastorServe.org/network. So be sure to avail yourself of that resource. Lots of other resources in there as well. Lysa, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to hang out with us on FrontStage Backstage, it’s always a joy. God bless you, sister.

Lisa TerKeurst
Thank you so much. Such an honor to be with you.

Jason Daye
Here at PastorServe, we hope you’re truly finding value through these episodes of FrontStage BackStage. If so, please consider leaving a review for us on your favorite podcast platform. These reviews help other ministry leaders and pastors just like you, find the show so they can benefit as well. Also, consider sharing this episode with a colleague or other ministry friend, and don’t forget our free toolkit, which is available at PastorServe.org/network. This is Jason Daye, encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well.