When the Holy Spirit Meets You in Ministry : Margaret Feinberg

Full-Text Transcript

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each and every single week, I have the privilege of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader, and together, we dive into a conversation all in an effort to help you and pastors and ministry leaders just like you truly thrive in both life and leadership. I’m really excited about today’s conversation. I’m going to be joined by Margaret Feinberg. Margaret speaks at churches and conferences, and she is the host of an incredible podcast called The Joycast. I encourage you to check that out. She’s written a number of books and Bible studies, and, in fact, has sold over a million copies worldwide of the resources and the books that she’s written. Her latest is entitled The God You Need to Know. At this time, I’d like to welcome Margaret to the show. Welcome.

Margaret Feinberg
So thrilled to be back with you, Jason. Whoo! Great day.

Jason Daye
Yes. Good to have you with us. Really excited about this conversation we’re diving into, looking at, really one of my favorite topics, incidentally, that is the Holy Spirit. As pastors and ministry leaders, this is going to be a really, I believe, encouraging, refreshing, and perhaps challenging conversation about maybe rediscovering some of the joys that the Holy Spirit brings into our lives and into our ministries. But before we really jump into all of that, Margaret, I would love to hear what prompted you to dive into this multi-year exploration of the Holy Spirit.

Margaret Feinberg
You know, ever since I was a little girl, I have struggled to wrap my head and heart around Holy Spirit. Grew up in a wild family. I tell amazing stories that are just bizarre and beautiful. I think someone who recently called them whimsical and crazy stories about my parents, moving around and living in so many different places, and wherever we would live, we would go to a different church. So that was Episcopal, Methodist, Southern Baptist, non-denominational, charismatic, and many, many Presbyterian, and many, many more. So, I had this broad-stroke kind of look at the body of Christ, which was stunning. But when I would ask questions about Holy Spirit, I would get wildly different answers. Along those years, there were times when we were part of churches where the Holy Spirit was never mentioned. Other times, it was very controlled or thought, well, the Holy Spirit works in other countries, just not ours. As if the Holy Spirit can’t travel geography. Then others, it was used, honestly, if I can just call it out, in an abusive, manipulative way. So, because of that woundedness, I took decades of my life just in a backseat, and probably over the last seven years, just sensed the Holy Spirit being like, okay, okay, come back. Like, let’s look at this in scripture. So that’s what I’ve done. And boy, it was a beast. I mean, saying you want to write a book on Holy Spirit is like saying I want to write a book on God. It’s so huge, so I just did years of research. I spun out in 100 different directions until a scholar who I read his books kind of pointed me toward looking at Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, and that started to allow things to click, to realize, and to see things differently. Because if you look for all the books on Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, I’ll just tell you, you’re not going to find very many.

Jason Daye
Yeah, yeah. I imagine. That’s one of the things I really appreciate about your book, The God You Need to Know, because as we’re recording this, Pentecost Sunday is coming up. And to think about, oftentimes, we attach Holy Spirit to Pentecost, right? Which is rightly so. I mean, it’s a pretty big demonstration of the Holy Spirit’s power, but I really appreciate the fact that you went back through the Old Testament and really explored the presence of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, we know Holy Spirit is co-eternal with God the Father, Jesus, the Son, so no surprise there. We all know stories and think about stories from the Old Testament, where we hear about the Spirit of God, and all that fun stuff. So we understand that. But it does seem like there’s a lot more appreciation for the Holy Spirit from Pentecost to moving forward than the same behind. So I really appreciate that. I would love to hear as you’re kind of processing through this, because one of the things that you just mentioned is one things that was going through my mind as I was reading through the book, and that is that so many of us in ministry come from different spiritual traditions, different streams of theology, right? Some have a much higher emphasis on the Holy Spirit and the work of the Holy Spirit. Some have a lesser emphasis. And so as we kind of look at that, the world of the church, over the last 2000 years, right? What thoughts do you have after spending years and years studying this? What thoughts do you have in regard to those different traditions, those different streams that we find ourselves in? Some of us are born into them and just, geographically, were raised in that particular stream. But, how do those relate to the Holy Spirit, and what can we learn, maybe, from other traditions?

Margaret Feinberg
Yeah, that’s such a great thought. So, first of all, I grew up in a tradition that really emphasized what I would ask about Holy Spirit. I would be sent to Acts 2, the book of Acts, and often references in the New Testament, almost as if Holy Spirit wasn’t really in the Old Testament, beginning in Genesis 1:2, hovering over the water and throughout. So, when I would read about Pentecost so often, I would think, that is awesome, but that is not my daily life. My life does not look like that. All that will appear strange and different. So it wasn’t until I went back through the Old Testament that I started to piece together, oh, and I actually looked at Holy Spirit in every major era of Israel’s history that I began to say, Oh. When you start to look at Holy Spirit in each of these eras, by the time you arrive at Acts 2, you go, Oh, of course it would happen this way. And I think that helps normalize it. I think it helps give those of us in a religious tradition who love a real strong biblical basis and want to understand this, rather than maybe just feelings or emotions or people running around and saying, God told me, which is super unhealthy. But we also have to recognize that in church history, I mean, the great schisms. Just so much is tied in some relation to different views on Holy Spirit and how the Spirit of the Living God works. But I think we also need to recognize, at least in the United States, that it wasn’t until the Azusa Revival, which was in the early 1900s, that a real study in depth of Pneumatology has been developed. Yes, people have been researching, we can go to all the greats hundreds and hundreds of years ago. But in-depth scholars really zeroing in on the Holy Spirit is relatively kind of, I know this can be pushed for some of you, little bit younger, a little bit younger of a study of just focusing in on that. So I think one of the ways that challenges us is to be open and to recognize that scholars are uncovering new things, making new connections, and seeing things in fresh ways that are grounded. I know one of my favorites is Jack Levinson, who really brought Holy Spirit in the Old Testament alive to me. So, this is something that we can start to dive into and look more specifically at in order to empower us to have a more flourishing relationship with Holy Spirit. Notice, and you’ve probably already heard it, I’m not saying the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I will, but I think even as leaders, we have got to consider changing our language. We would not say the God, the Jesus, but how do we talk about the Holy Spirit? Yet, Holy Spirit is a person, part of the Godhead. I think, growing up, I would be given little pictures of, you know, how does the Trinity work? It’d be the apple, the skin, the meat, the core, the seeds, and the three-in-one are all the beauty. All of those are helpful, but all kind of fall short of the magnificence and mystery of who the Trinity is. There’s a wonderful word, perichoresis, that is used to describe the internal relationship of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit. Peri, meaning around, choresis, meaning dance. It is one of the words we get the word choreography from. So one of the things that has helped me, and I think it’s helpful for others that, no matter what the tradition, is this image of the Trinity in a dance, and recognizing that at different points in the Bible, we will see one member taking the lead. So, for instance, in the opening of Genesis, we see God taking the lead in speaking creation into existence. Yet, we know Holy Spirit is there in Genesis 1:2, that the Spirit hovered over the water. We also recognize the presence of Christ in the “we” and the reflections later in the text in the Bible, referring back. So we see that all are present. We see it in the life of Christ, Christ taking the lead. But then we see Holy Spirit descending in the form of a dove, and the Father saying, This is my Son in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him. So, I think, as leaders, there’s a healthy shift when we start introducing and even just removing the “the” before Holy Spirit and teaching our people that this is a person in the Godhead. Just as you can have a relationship with God and relationship with Christ, you can have a relationship with Holy Spirit. Jesus promised it when he said, I am sending the paraclete, the advocate, the comforter, the bystander, to be with you. As we start to look back in the Old Testament, we see the text coming alive, that that was the characteristic and nature of Holy Spirit since the very beginning of time.

Jason Daye
Hey, friends, just a quick reminder that we provide a free toolkit that complements today’s conversation. You can find this for this episode and every episode at PastorServe.org/network. In the toolkit, you’ll find a number of resources, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. This growth guide includes insights pulled from today’s conversation as well as reflection questions, so you and the ministry team at your local church can dig more deeply into this topic and see how it relates to your specific ministry context. Again, you can find it at PastorServe.org/network.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s beautiful. I would love to hear, Margaret, as you said, you’re no stranger to the Holy Spirit, right? Growing up in a Christian home, being involved in and engaging in ministry, writing numerous books, speaking, and all the things that you do. So, you’re no stranger to the Holy Spirit, and yet, over the last several years, you’ve really dug in. I would love to hear and maybe this is an encouragement to all of us in ministry. Were there some new insights that were surprising to you, or maybe some rediscoveries that the Spirit kind of bubbled up in your life as you dug into the work of the Holy Spirit?

Margaret Feinberg
Yeah, I think one that has just haunted me in the most beautiful, delightful way is tucked into Genesis 1:2. Here is God, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless and void. The Spirit, the Ruach in Hebrew, which can also be translated breath, wind, spirit, was hovering over the waters. That word in the Hebrew for hovering is merehephet, and we see it pop up in the book of Deuteronomy when we see God wanting to stir up like a mother Eagle’s nest for the young. We see this imagery of this hovering, or one rabbi who I adore, translates this as fluttering, and the spirit fluttering over. We see it in the life of Christ, when Christ says that he wanted to gather the kids, God’s children, like a hen, and wrap the wings around. So we see this imagery embraced by Father, Son, and Spirit. Again, the Trinity, three-in-one. The majesty of God and that, how often, in those moments, what is the Spirit hovering over? Hovering over the abyss, the water, the chaos, that rich imagery that is there that is marked by uncertainty and the unknown, and that often in our seasons of uncertainty and unknown, we discover Holy Spirit hovering over us. I know that as a leader, you’ve heard 1000 stories of the people who are at a funeral for a loved one, and all of a sudden, the three butterflies come by when they walk out of the church. I had a woman share the story, and then go ahead of them to the car that they’re driving away in. Or the story of a woman who lost her husband of 43 years and is sitting alone on Mother’s Day, and a white dove lands in her yard, sits on her windowsill, not just all day, but all night until the next morning. She asked the Lord, Lord, why did you send a dove? I’ve never seen one in 30 years of living in this house, and all of a sudden, she has a thought pop into her mind from the Lord that says, I have set my very best Holy Spirit to remind you that I will never leave you nor forsake you. So in those moments of suffering, of uncertainty, of the unknown, of the darkness we can live with the expectation that Holy Spirit is hovering, fluttering, is drawing, and wrapping those loving arms of Christ and God around us in those moments, and to begin paying attention, and perhaps to not be so dismissive of the people who are telling those stories, because often, why would the Creator God not be able to use all of creation to remind us of the Spirit of the Living God and the nearness of his presence in those times?

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love those stories. Years ago, I did work with the Jesus Film, and there are so many stories that came out of the Jesus Film being translated into so many different languages, being trucked by backpack up into mountain villages that had never seen. And I remember these stories like the screen would go up, they start showing the film, it’s Jesus speaking in the common language of the people of that tribe, and people are like, I know this man because I’ve dreamed of him, I’ve seen him. So we hear those stories, and those stories are fun to tell. I’m getting goosebumps right now, honestly, but fun to tell and think about and share that experience. But to your point, sometimes here in the US, we’re a little too polished, or whatever it might be, to engage in those things. So, Margaret, talk to us a little bit, because you bring us up in the book. This idea of the Holy Spirit engaging with us, not just internally, not just impressions, per se, but even more, I don’t know the word, dramatically, maybe? Showing up, whether it’s in dreams, in visions, showing up through the presence of a dove on a windowsill, or three butterflies through creation. Talk to us a little bit about that, and maybe the challenge for us as ministry leaders, we’re trying to keep things going, to open ourselves up to some of that.

Margaret Feinberg
Yeah, I would argue that there’s probably not a ministry leader who is listening or watching right now who has not experienced the precision of Holy Spirit. I don’t think we talk about the precision of God enough. When I say that word, we’ve all had it. The moment when that thing happens that is inexplicable, at the exact moment that the timing could have been a day before or after, and it was not. It was then. We get those little affirmations, or those confirmations, Holy Spirit is with us. God is with us. He is working. I think one of the things that you asked earlier, what I’ve learned, is the importance of shifting the posture of our lives. Holy Spirit is all around us. He is working through everybody that you are serving or leading. I mean, Holy Spirit is on the move. There’s no question about that. But I think that, at least in my life, I know I’ve missed it because of the posture of my life. I’m with the to-dos. I’m with the gotta get it done. I’m with the gotta finish this up, this project, this conversation, this person, this over-full schedule. What I’ve been learning over the last few years is the importance of slowing down and paying attention. My friend Drake, I love this practice, and this may be a practice you may want to engage as you’re listening, or offer to those who are in your churches, in your congregations, or those you serve. But, Drake leads Young Life in the community that I live in. I said, How do you introduce your teams just to Holy Spirit? He said, I just encourage them to do this one practice. He said that he encourages them to go and get a journal, and then each day to write down one question to Holy Spirit, and it can be a question about purpose or identity. Who am I? What are you calling me to? What’s on your heart? Then write that question in the morning, then throughout the day, not 10,000 prayers, just one. Throughout the day, keep coming back to that one conversation-starter with Holy Spirit, and then start paying attention to the sermons you’re listening to, the conversations you suddenly have, the unexpected circumstances, and those precise moments that Holy Spirit may be answering. Then the next day, you write down what you experienced the previous day, and you may ask the same question or another question. But as you begin journaling this, as the weeks and months pass, you’re going to start to see how Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Living God, is answering those prayers, engaging you, and meeting you. I know. I tried it. I’ve been trying this since January. So each day, I write down one question. Honestly, we’ve had a lot of chaos in our lives. You know, you don’t write a book about Holy Spirit without everything going absolutely bat-nut insane. Next time, I’m writing my book on Jesus and Bunny. But in the chaos of it all, my prayer every day, my prayer prompt in that journal has been Holy Spirit, order our steps. Then that is a lot. We don’t know the wisdom. We don’t know the timing. We don’t know. Yet, I’ve been watching for months as Holy Spirit has slowly been answering that one request. I’m seeing the precision of God anew, the provision, the grace, the conversations, and the promptings to go start up that conversation with a stranger, send that encouraging note, and take the time to write back this person in depth. I’m seeing this ordering that is a sensitivity that is really just about changing the posture of our lives to be like, okay, Holy Spirit, I’m going to leave a little bit more margin in my life. I’m going to be more attentive to when those little surges of divine energy, those thoughts that call us, that are consistent with Scripture and the character of God, pop into my mind that are pulling me away from self-ward and are driving me outward to be a person who is serving, loving, giving, engaging in the fruits of the Spirit, and hopefully being a part of bringing in the kingdom.That’s not huge, crazy ways. It’s often the most simple acts. Something that you said, you said this idea, you know, the more demonstrative or the miracles of God. I think that language “miracle”, I think for a lot of people out there, for me, I’ve seen it abused. Like, this is a miracle. I’m like, you got the parking spot. You’re fine. Like, come on, kids, come on. But I think one of those beautiful definitions of miracle that I’ve stumbled on that I can embrace and understand miracles more readily is that a miracle is the kindness of God on display. So, those come in all sizes and shapes, gentleness, tenderness, and provision. So, when we start to understand that and look for the kindness of God on display, we start to see the goodness of God, the miracles of God, that he is doing in the everyday.

Jason Daye
At Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside the pastors and ministry leaders just like you. If you want to learn more about how you can qualify for a complimentary coaching session with one of our trusted ministry coaches, please visit PastorServe.org/freesession. You don’t want to miss out on this opportunity. That’s PastorServe.org/freesession.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, Margaret. I love that practice. Such a great reminder because that attunes us, as you said, to these ways that the Spirit is showing up and the kindness of God is showing up in our lives. Something you mentioned earlier, and related to what you were just discussing, is this idea of guidance from the Holy Spirit. One of the things you said earlier is that that can be abusive. Ministry leaders can lean into kind of the whole, hey, “the Spirit told me” type of a thing, right? So, we’ve seen this in a number of ways. Some people lean into that a lot. Some people have kind of discarded that, and some ministry leaders have discarded that because they don’t want it to come across that way. Talk to us a little bit about one, I don’t know if I want to say responsible, or maybe a biblical approach to assigning things to God, to the Spirit. But, how in our decision making, as pastors and ministry leaders, we are hopefully dependent upon the Spirit in making decisions for our ministry, for our people, and for our community. How can we better understand when the Spirit is speaking and we’re being led by the Spirit versus being led by ourselves, our own thoughts, or our own ambitions?

Margaret Feinberg
Absolutely, the go-tos are, is this consistent with Scripture and the character of God? Does this increase my dependence on God? Does this produce the fruit of the Spirit in my life and the lives of those who work with me? I think there’s, does this give a deep sense of peace? It may be risky, it may be uncomfortable, but at the end of the day, you know that you’re supposed to do it. But I think there is something, and I think it creeps into many of us as leaders, and we have to be very aware and on guard for it. But when we start to say, The Lord told me, God told me, and we grab onto that with a tight fist, you immediately shut down the conversation for everybody around you. It may not be meant to be abusive, but it really quickly can be, and the letting go is simply in the wording. This is something I sense that perhaps the Spirit may be leading us toward. And just the shift in the words, the vernacular, is so much more open-handed, and it invites others in your staff and in your congregation to speak in, to be part of that discernment process, and not just your board, but everyone, and to invite them into praying about that thing. What you’ll see, and so often I think we got a little, it’s hard. Ministry is hard. It’s incredibly isolating, the pressures. It feels like no one understands except the other people who are in the exact same seat. I get it. I get it. But, throughout human history, since the beginning, when creation was made in the relationship and the joyous choreography dance of Father, Son, and Spirit, we have been meant to be in relationship with others who can speak wisdom, light, and life, and as leaders who can just say no to us. We desperately need those people. But the nature of ministry, especially in the American church today, is that one by one, you will eliminate those people from your ministry, and yet those are the people who are going to help save and protect you from becoming your worst self. So, I think that part of that shift is holding things more open-handedly and saying, I think I sense, perhaps this is Holy Spirit. Would you join in praying? Would you provide feedback? Just something as simple as that can really start to allow for a healthy awareness of the Spirit and using all the gifts in the community, not just your own.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s good. That’s super helpful. As we’re thinking about ministry, life of ministry, the Holy Spirit, obviously, is engaged both in our life and our leadership, engaged in both the front stage of our ministry, in the backstage of the more personal side of life. Holy Spirit isn’t boxed into anything in particular, but it’s holistic involvement in our lives. Margaret, what encouragement do you have for the ministry leader who is really seeking to become more dependent upon the Holy Spirit in their lives and in their ministry? Whether it’s in the public arena or whether it’s backstage, in their personal lives?

Margaret Feinberg
Yeah, I think a lot of it is just beginning that conversation and keeping that conversation open, almost like the journaling or the prayer prompts, and saying Holy Spirit, I want all of you today. Holy Spirit lead, guide. Simple prayers. These are not hour-and-a-half prayers. These are simple, that you just keep coming back to. And I think that as you do that, you will see that God is faithful. He’s not leaving you alone in this. He’s going to bring the people, the conversations, and the stories of provision to affirm the work that he is doing, not just in your life, but in the community that you’re serving. So, I would encourage you. I would also encourage you to take a look at The God You Need to Know. Recognize that the Holy Spirit is working in so many different ways. I think one of the things that we do in Scripture and sometimes in our own lives is we take out or we identify one way Holy Spirit works. We go, this is the way. But here’s the deal. Psalm 139, God knew us. He knit us together in the womb, and in that we know now about neuro-diversity, that we’re all processing information differently. So, the way we learn, tactile, auditory, or visual, is going to be wildly different. So, there’s not one cookie-cutter way that Holy Spirit works. One of the most fascinating things in the research of this is, I got to survey thousands and thousands of people through my e-newsletter about how they encounter the Spirit. It was fascinating, just the different ways. Some people experience Holy Spirit as a warmth, almost like in their bodies. Others as kind of this just gentle presence. Others describe the presence of Holy Spirit as liquid love. Others acknowledge a feeling. I’m not a feeling girl. I see the worship leader up front, and the worship leader says, Do you just sense the Holy Spirit here? And I’m like, nope, nope, not at all. But I can mentally acknowledge Holy Spirit is here. I’ve had others, one described, I love this, my friend Katie said she knows it’s Holy Spirit when she starts arguing with God. God, I don’t really want to do that. God, I don’t think that’s a good idea. God, I don’t want to take that risk. I don’t want to be nice. That’s not my responsibility. Now she’s recognized in her life when she starts arguing, that’s likely the Spirit of the Living God engaging her and calling her to that love God, love others, outward focus. One person wrote in and she said, Well, you know, I recognize Holy Spirit because whenever I’m lost, I just pray, and Holy Spirit just gives me the directions, whether it’s in a neighborhood or a new city. At first, I thought, I’m just gonna be honest, that is really weird. I was like, that is strange, I’m not sure. Then I thought about it a little longer, and I was like, Huh, I want her on my team, right? My hunch is, if I dug in with her more, she would acknowledge being lost in the community. I bet there are people in her life who are asking for wisdom, and she gives the wisdom for the way forward in their lives. That’s a guess. That’s a stretch. But to recognize that in our lives, in the lives of our staff and our communities, Holy Spirit is working in all these different ways. There’s something that happens, and I’ve experienced with you already here, like there’s this thrill that happens when we start telling the stories of the Holy Spirit and how Holy Spirit is working in all of our lives in these different ways. It makes us hungry to experience the leading and the prompting more. I was recently in a staff meeting at William Jessup University in California, and man, the way that staff came together, it was just praying for the Holy Spirit to move among the students and the staff, and the stories they were telling. These were not great stories of people growing limbs again, though I do have those. But these were just everyday precision, provision, kindness, and character of God on display. And there’s something that happens when we start creating an environment where it is safe and welcome to tell these stories, and we as leaders can do that.

Jason Daye
I love that. I love that. That’s a great encouragement. I want to dive into one more. And it might be opening Pandora’s box here a little bit. But, yeah, let’s go for it. So, in all of our ministries, we have seasons where, oftentimes, it might seem like things just aren’t going right. It seems like it’s one thing after the other, after the other, and there might be painful things, discouraging things, again and again and again. And I’ve worked with so many pastors and ministry leaders and heard stories of just seasons of just challenge, despair, struggle, and all that. Margaret, talk to us a little bit about, because there may be a tendency. Let’s say this, there may be a tendency to say, all this pain, all this stuff, things aren’t going the way we anticipate, and everything else. I’m praying about it. I’m trying to be obedient. And yet, God, where are you? I don’t feel like you’re showing up or whatever it might be. Sometimes we can feel like maybe there’s an absence of the presence of the Spirit, or whatever it might be. So we struggle. We wrestle with that. This is real talk, right? We wrestle with that as ministry leaders. How do we navigate those seasons in light of the reality of what the Holy Spirit is doing in our lives and in our world?

Margaret Feinberg
I’m going to ask a question. When is this podcast releasing?

Jason Daye
That’s a great question. Let me double-check. I don’t know the exact date looks like July. I think in July.

Margaret Feinberg
Okay, so I’m gonna give a very honest and frank answer. So, let’s go through like over the years, my husband and I have been involved in ministry and churches. We have been embezzled. I have battled aggressive cancer. We have lost jobs. Suffered under abusive leaders. I mean, we have, we have been, I call it, I live to die another day. Just to give you a very practical, timely look. This book comes out June 10. Pentecost this year is June 8, and on June 9, I am having at least a seven-hour surgery with two surgeons that would be followed by several more. It is not cancer, but it’s very complex. So, for those of who you are in the midst of it like this, anybody who works in that, that’s a terrible time. I mean, it is too much to face. I will just tell you I wake up most mornings just crying. I know what I’m in for because I’ve done this before. The surgery and the hospital-land, and it’s a brutal season. I wrote this book with hives breaking out every time I set to write. I’ve never had a hive in my life before. So, just real practical. I get it. I get it when you’re in those dark seasons. I am walking through one now. I think that in those moments, I think there is that sense back to Genesis 1:2, that when it doesn’t make sense and it’s all falling apart, we say, Holy Spirit, work in my mayhem. Hover over me. Show your precision. I think that in those times of pain and suffering and difficulty that you are going to find these little moments when the Holy Spirit provides that encouraging word, that one email sent that breathes life into your weary soul, that one timing of something, or offer to stay in somebody’s cabin or use their second house as a getaway for a weekend, or that little gift card that pops up, or that person who shows up with the exact flavor of ice cream that you love. I think that when we start to look for those, we will see those. I think there is no question, scripturally or reality, that Holy Spirit is not there. You may not feel Holy Spirit. I don’t almost every day, but that does not erase that mental reality that Spirit is there. I also think I know a number of years ago, in the midst of an aggressive cancer battle, I was just praying. It was too much. I couldn’t walk. I’m so sick I can’t even walk across my living room. I can’t function. News gets worse and worse for months and years. In the midst of that, I was just praying. I was like, God, it’s too much. I can’t. I cannot do this. And I remember a thought popped in my head that was not my own, and it was simply, you can cling to the crisis, or you can cling to Christ, but you do not have arms big enough for both. It was that reorientation against, again, to the life of Christ in those moments of hardship, in those moments of suffering. You know that that is our answer. I don’t say that as a shallow, pacified plaid answer. I say that like we discover it. I remember early in my diagnosis, I had a pastor who called me, and his first word was a curse word, and I so appreciated that, because he was in it with me. He was in it. He knew. He wasn’t trying to spiritually bypass, happy Christian dance, none of that nonsense. But he said to me something I’ve never forgotten and sustained me over the last 12 years, and that is Margaret, a good Christology will carry you through. In other words, I believe, and I try to express this in my books and my writing, but I think, if you look at the story of the disciples in church history, they died brutal, horrific deaths. Christ did too, right? I mean, you’ve got people who are beheaded, drowned, and burned alive, all horrific, and then you’ve got John on the island of Patmos rotting it out, imprisoned. I mean, he’s the winner, winner shofar dinner. And you realize that is the life of Christ. And I think that the Holy Spirit, in those seasons, who provides those precise moments of encouragement and strength and provision, is the one reminding you like He is with you, He is with you, He is with you. Keep going.

Jason Daye
Amen. Amen. Thank you, Sister. Thank you for your vulnerability. We’ll be praying for you as you’re experiencing this, but just a reminder that the Holy Spirit is sweet and tender in the way that he shows up right in those moments, so that can bouy our souls. Love it. Love it. The God You Need to Know. Incredible book. Encourage those of you who are watching or listening along to check it out. Margaret, I understand that you’ve also created some other resources around the book itself. Can you talk to us about that?

Margaret Feinberg
Yes, yes, oh my goodness. Yes. At the end of summer in August, we have The God You Need to Know Bible study, and it’s 12 practices to awaken your relationship with Holy Spirit. If you can’t tell, it’s super biblically grounded, right? Like we’re not. We don’t do spooky or kooky here. It’s not my jam. But super biblically grounded and just such a great way to get the believers who you’re serving aware of Holy Spirit, connecting with each other, having that discernment process as a community, six sessions, about 22-24 minute teachings. So there’s plenty of time to dive into the Scripture and to share the stories of what and how Holy Spirit is working in individual lives, and so I’m excited for people to experience that and awaken more to the power and presence of Holy Spirit.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, Margaret. Thank you for not only the book, but also that resource, so we can use that in our local churches with our people, and invite them into discovering the beauty that is the Holy Spirit. Sister, it is always a pleasure to hang out with you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for making time and just for your openness on this journey that you’ve been on, inviting us into it, and sharing with us about the beauty of the Holy Spirit. So, thank you for being with us.

Margaret Feinberg
Thank you. Always a joy.

Jason Daye
All right, God bless you.

Jason Daye
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