Thoughtfully Teaching on the End Times: Max Lucado

Full-Text Transcript

As we preach, teach, and disciple others, how can we keep an eternal perspective in mind and thoughtfully address the end times?

Jason Daye
In this episode, I’m joined by Max Lucado. Max is a speaker, best-selling author, and the pastor of Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, Texas. Max’s books have sold nearly 150 million copies worldwide. His latest is entitled, What Happens Next? Together, Max and I look at our ministries from an eternal perspective, considering our ministry legacy and finishing well. Max then provides some incredible wisdom about how we can thoughtfully approach preaching on the end times. Are you ready? Let’s go.

Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome to another insightful episode of FrontStage BackStage. I’m your host, Jason Daye. Each and every week, I have the privilege of sitting down with a trusted ministry leader and we dive into a conversation all in an effort to help you, and pastors and ministry leaders just like you, embrace a healthy rhythm for both life and ministry. We’re proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. Every single week, not only do we have a conversation, but we create an entire toolkit for you and the ministry leaders of your local church so that you can dig more deeply into the topic at hand. You can find that toolkit at PastorServe.org/network. You’ll find that there are a lot of resources, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. So we encourage you to use that in your local church ministry. Now at Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders and you can learn more about how you can receive a complimentary coaching session by visiting PastorServe.org/freesession. Now if you’re joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and drop your name and the name of your church in the comments below. We love getting to know our audience better and we’ll be praying for you and for your ministry. Whether you’re joining us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe and follow so you do not miss out on any of these great conversations. Let me tell you, we have a great conversation for you today. I would like to welcome Max Lucado to FrontStage BackStage. Welcome, Max.

Max Lucado
Jason, it’s so good to see you. I trust that you’re doing well.

Jason Daye
Yeah, Brother, I am super well. Super excited for this conversation. Now, Max, in your life you’re coming up on some big milestones, both personally and when we think of the ministry world. As we’re looking at some of these big milestones in ministry, we need to kind of stop and think about our ministry legacy, like what is going to outlive us? So Max, I’m curious if you could help us as pastors and ministry leaders, what are some of the conversations you’ve been having with God over the last handful of years as you’ve been thinking about your ministry legacy?

Max Lucado
Thank you for that question. I’m going to begin answering it by offering a prayer of blessing for all of your listeners, whether they be pastors or ministry leaders. I pray that this conversation can bolster your spirits and remind you to run the good race and fight the good fight. Know that there’s a great crown of righteousness laid up in store for you. May you stay strong and faithful. You’re right, Jason, I’m closing in on 70 years. That’s a lot of candles to put on my next birthday cake. I began ministry in 1979. So I don’t think I’ve even done the math on that I have been at the same church. It’s my 36th year now at the church in San Antonio. So it’s really hard to believe that I have, by God’s grace, been able to serve and be a part of this work for so long. As I look back over my time, all I see is grace and grace for my weaknesses, grace for my sins, and then the great story of grace that God has allowed me to share. As I look forward, I’m just so excited. I’m so excited. I never have loved preaching more. I’ve never loved writing more or talking about Jesus more. I think these are urgent days. They’re concerning days, but they’re exciting days. They’re exciting days because as the darkness increases, the light stands out of more contrast, doesn’t it? The darker the night the brighter the stars as they say. So the gospel. We’re seeing gospel revivals break out around the world. I was just reading a couple of days ago about revival in Iran. I’m excited about some revivals on college campuses and seeing hundreds of people baptized. So while these are tough times, and I know we’ll talk about that today, I’m super excited to be alive in this time. Lastly, my prayer is that I just finish well. That I finish running the race that God has set out for me, using the gifts that He has given to me, and the opportunities he’s given to me. I look up in great admiration to people like Charles Stanley, and Chuck Swindoll, who’s a hero of mine, David Jeremiah. Of course, David and Chuck are still alive and still serving. This is why I love them so much. Charles Stanley finished strong. Bob Russell would be in that camp from Louisville, Kentucky. I have heroes, always have. I’ve found great inspiration in having personal heroes who have finished strong and are finishing strong. I just pray I can be numbered among them.

Jason Daye
That’s awesome. Thank you for that, Max. Max, I’d love to hear your thoughts. Maybe you can give us some ideas or some pointers since you have been ministering for decades. Sometimes we get kind of caught up, kind of head down in what’s right in front of us in our ministry world, right? Yet, you have found a way to kind of pull back. We’re going to talk about this in greater detail. Pull back and look at kind of this eternal perspective, like kind of the ripple effects of our ministries that move through eternity. So can you talk to us a little bit, Max, about how you’ve learned to balance that? Hey, things need to be done today, right? I mean, we have schedules today, right? We’re here recording this now, right? So things need to be done today. So there are those activities that we’re engaged in for the Kingdom and yet balancing that with this eternal perspective.

Max Lucado
Well, that’s such a great question. You always ask such great questions and that’s right at the top of the list. We could spend the whole time answering that one question. But my two ideas about that are number one, when it comes to eternal perspective, it really helps to keep the big thing, the big thing, or the main thing, the main thing. That’s the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. I believe our list of essentials needs to be very, very short. If you call God your Creator, if you call God the Father, your Father, if you call Jesus your Savior, if you identify the Holy Spirit as your power, and if you trust in the saving work of Christ on the cross, what you and I have in common is so far greater than any differences we might have when it comes to doctrine, or even how to live in the world today. So I believe that’s really, really helpful. I was taught that early, and I think I’ve been spared from wasting or using a lot of energy arguing about secondary things. If you have one understanding of, for example, the role of women in pastoral leadership, and I might have a different one, that’s okay, we can figure out a way to work together. There are so many issues like that, that do warrant healthy and even rigorous discussion, but never division. It’s when we get into division, that’s when we get exhausted and that’s when we deplete ourselves of the much-needed fellowship that we have. So keep the big thing, the big thing. The big thing is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Of this, I committed unto you of first importance. Paul wrote that Jesus died, he was buried, and risen from the dead. So of first importance is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Then number two, I really, really believe that we’re called to succeed at home first. Succeeded home first. I’ve got so many dear friends, whose ministry has been kind of discredited because of issues at home. That’s why the Apostle Paul challenged pastors to be a “one-woman man” is your translation there. In other words, honor your wife, and love your children. For if a man cannot love his own wife and children, how can you love the church? And vice versa I would say about women. So let’s succeed at home first. Honor your wife. Honor your children. That doesn’t mean that you don’t go out and minister on trips. It doesn’t mean that you don’t keep office hours. It does mean that you take your preacher hat off when you’re on the way home or when you’re about to reconnect with your kids. It does mean that you see your children as your first mission field and you love those kids. You devote yourself to those kids. Most of all, it does mean that you protect the sacredness of the home. That’s a wedge that Satan can use to break up even the healthiest of marriages. So succeed at home first and keep the big thing, the big thing.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for that, Max. It’s so important. As we are talking about legacy, the milestones you’ve reached in your life, as we’re looking at this eternal perspective, you have at this point in your life, put pen to paper once again for us, which is a gift to us all. But you’ve focused in on a topic that you haven’t really dedicated a full book, or a full project to this particular topic. The topic is the end times. So, Max, first, I’m curious, as we’re thinking about legacies, we’re thinking about eternal perspective, why did you feel God was leading you to really dive into this type of a project at this point?

Max Lucado
Well, two answers. One, I’m insatiably curious about what’s next. One of the advantages of growing older in Christ is that you can genuinely get excited about what you’re going to see the moment after you take your final earthly breath, or what you’re going to see if we’re a part of that generation that meets Christ in the clouds. We talk about that in the book. I can’t quit thinking about it. I just can’t. It’s a happy, wonderful obsession. I’m like a little kid outside of an amusement park waiting to get in. I can try to envision what it’s going to be like. I try to map out and read scriptures about what eternity is going to be like, and I gotta tell you, this is gonna sound a bit odd, but I’m really excited to die. I’m so excited. I feel absolute peace and hope. I go to bed every night saying, Lord, come tonight if you want. I wake up every morning saying perhaps today, Lord. I really am excited about what’s going to happen next. I am intrigued by some of these tougher topics of Armageddon, antichrist, and the rapture. I think early in my ministry I was a bit intimidated to get into that world, and it is challenging. But that’s okay. That’s okay. I thought, if I’m ever going to take a shot at it, now’s my time. So that’s the first reason, Jason. I’m genuinely curious about what’s next and I’m also genuinely concerned about what’s happening. As we look around the world we see so many indications of chaos and corruption, especially around Israel. Let’s just state what’s happening in Israel and Gaza is horrible, it’s just horrible. There’s no way that we can take a clinical or just an academic look at it. These are human lives that are being lost, blood that is being spilled, and futures that are being ruined. It’s just terrible. As students of Scripture, we do pay attention to Israel, and what the role of Israel will be in the end times. So again, I’m really concerned about what I see. Add to that concerns about Russia, China, Taiwan, and to the concerns about Iran. Then add to that it just seems to me the moral freefall that it feels like our world is in right now. I am concerned about the present. So trying to filter and see these concerns through the lens of Scripture, I find is very encouraging. Then the last thing I would say is that I really believe that clarity about the future gives us courage to face the present. So as pastors, we want to give people courage. God talked about end times. One in every 25 verses in the New Testament talks about the return of Christ. Not to scare us, but just to prepare us to keep us looking. To keep us so that we’re not freaked out. We see what’s happening and we say, okay, Jesus told us something like this would happen. So I know He’s in control. I know He’s sovereign. So that’s the role of a pastor or ministry leader right now, to calm the flock. Calm the flock. Don’t let them freak out. One way to do that is by entering into this conversation about what happens next.

Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. In your book, What Happens Next? One of the things that you do so well is you point to the hope piece of it and, as you said, be prepared rather than scared, that sort of thing. It’s interesting as we think of our lives as pastors and ministry leaders and we all reflect, you mentioned a little bit earlier there, Max, that maybe earlier in your ministry you might have been a little more intimidated to approach this topic. It seems that when we look at pastors and ministry leaders, there are some that are really, really into the End Times. Almost obsessed, right? They build their ministries basically on the end times. That’s one extreme, right? The other extreme is ignoring it altogether. But at some point, I think all of us who’ve pastored over time, fall somewhere in the middle there. Where we’re good talking about Jesus coming again, right? I mean, that’s our hope. Right? We kind of talk about what that means that Jesus is coming again. However, there is that, as you said, intimidation piece of stepping into talking about the end times. So, Max, can you help us a little bit as we consider what it means to thoughtfully teach and preach on the end times? What are some ideas you have from the perspective of a pastor? Maybe things to avoid, maybe things to lean into, or things to consider when it comes to the End Times?

Max Lucado
Great question. Great question. I believe we need to enter into this conversation with confidence. Jesus told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truths. So we can trust that the Holy Spirit will lead us. I believe we can study scripture and be decisive but never divisive. We can be decisive. We can have convictions and say yes, I really think that’s what 1 Thessalonians 4 says. I really think that’s what Revelation 20 says. I really think this is what is about to happen, at least it seems to me. But we couch all of our teachings in it seems right to me, or the Lord seems to lead me in this direction. I don’t like the idea of being dogmatic about such an immense topic because there’s so much we don’t know. Honestly, we should have questions because we haven’t been told everything. I do think that to avoid the topic altogether sends a message to our church that it’s impossible for anyone to understand it. That’s an extreme I think we ought to avoid as well. Let’s give it a go. You know, let’s use the brains God has given us. Let’s roll up our sleeves. Let’s open our books. Let’s get on our knees and let’s try to figure out if there is going to be a millennium. Is there going to be a seven-year tribulation? At what point do we treat scripture symbolically or literally? Let’s wrestle with some of these hard questions. We’re not the first generation to wrestle with these questions. I do think we are a generation that is uniquely equipped to answer these questions and wrestle with them, just because of what we’re seeing on the world stage. So things 30 years ago, to envision Israel surrounded by enemies, might have been more difficult than it is today. Of course, 100 years ago, to envision Israel as a world player in end times was absolutely impossible, because they didn’t exist, right? So on one hand, we have our news sources that we’re consulting and we’re watching world events. On the other hand, we have our Bible open. So we’re doing our very best as men and women of God trying to line those up and it’s good for us to share ideas. You know, if you’re amillennial, and I’m pre-millennial, let’s swap a few ideas. Let’s sharpen each other swords. Don’t be divisive. We can be decisive. Let’s come at it and model this for our church. They have questions, people have questions. So let’s do our very best to provide clarity about the future.

Jason Daye
Yeah, that’s super helpful, Max. I think that clarity piece is important because although we can admit that we don’t have all the answers. Because we’re not there yet, right? So although we can admit that, as you said, we can have some confidence in saying, Hey, this is scripture, this is God’s truth, this is God’s word. So let’s dig into this a little bit. Let’s try to look at it with some clarity and perspective to help people with what happens next. As a resource and as a tool, this book that you’re studying that you’ve put into it your years of biblical study and knowledge, and those types of things. Looking at what’s going on in the world around us, how do you see pastors using a book such as What Happens Next? Using some resources like this to help inform their preaching and teaching around the end times, what do these resources help us with and help us to do?

Max Lucado
I hope they model for pastors and ministry leaders an approach toward end times. I see that this book is an end times 101. If I had a small group, which I have had all my ministry life, if I had a small group and we were talking through end times, I would come at it from this approach that I did in the book. If I can take just a second to summarize this because I think it’s important. The book begins with four big ideas. Idea number one, we were made to reign. If we want to understand what’s going to happen at the end, we have to go all the way back to what happened in the beginning and take a look at the Garden of Eden. I believe a healthy study of end times begins with the honest study of the first times. That’s when God declared that Adam and Eve would reign and rule with Him. So God has not changed his mind on that one. That’s an important point to establish. Then number two, we have major covenants. Covenants to Abraham. Covenants to David. Covenants to Jeremiah. Again, covenant with Adam and Eve. I know we’ve had discussions forever about what to do with these covenants. So wrestle with that. Wrestle with that. I think that our God is a covenant-keeping God. So what we do with these covenants and how we interpret them is really important. The book of Daniel is important in the study of end times, and I get it, oh, my goodness, I get it. It’s not an easy study. Daniel 9 is very, very important. Then I think the fourth big question that a person must wrestle with is Revelation 20. What do we do with a millennium? Why would there be a millennium? Is there really going to be a millennium? Of course, I disclose how I went from not believing in a millennium to now I’m super excited about a 1000-year reign of Christ, and I share why. Then the second part of the book follows what I perceive to be a healthy timeline for the milestones of major events, the rapture, the tribulation, the return of Christ, and then the 1000-year reign, and then the great white throne judgment. Then the time in which we enter into our eternal state. I loved unpacking this timeline. I love it. Again, I’m not saying it’s airtight and perfect. Nobody should ever say that. It’s my best shot at it. It’s my best shot at it. What it does is it activates enthusiasm. I saw this in our church. We had amazing attendance as we were teaching these messages. We had more souls saved as we’re teaching because this is evangelism. This is telling people what’s about to happen. It energizes people because the truth of the matter is that the whole world is on lockdown. Even though the pandemic is not happening anymore, at least we’ve been set free from that. But there still is a sense in which we’re locked down on fear, and anxiety, we have riots, we have anger, and we have a suicide rate at the highest it’s ever been. So Jesus anticipating this said, don’t let your hearts be troubled, in my Father’s house there are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I’m going there to prepare a place for you. Here he’s speaking to His disciples on the night before his crucifixion. They’re anxious. They’re troubled. So look what he does. He lifts up their attention from the here and now and invites them to direct their attention on the mansions, on the life, and on the world that is to come. We’re serving our church when we invite them to do the same.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely love that, Max. I love that. As we look at the world around us, we’ve mentioned this multiple times, there’s a lot of distrust and division, a lot of disinformation. I mean, that’s a huge thing right now that we’re battling with. How do we preach and teach in the midst of those types of, the skepticism, I guess, right? That everything is mistrusted, it seems, in the world around us. Even news, right? Everything. How do we as pastors and ministry leaders, preach boldly into an environment that is so skeptical?

Max Lucado
Absolutely. What a great question, Jason. I believe we trust the power of the Word of God. We open the Bible with our church. We invite them to test Scripture. We invite him to visit the empty tomb of Jesus. We invite them to look at the claims of Christ. Study the story of the life of Jesus. We just invite them into Scripture. The tendency or the challenge is to get over here in certain controversies that might be the hot topics of our day. But our job is to take people back to Scripture, back to Scripture, back to Scripture. Remember when Jesus was walking with the disciples on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection, and the scripture says He opened unto them the Scripture. He opened to them the story beginning with Moses and the prophets. He told them the story. Look what he did. He gave them a Bible Lesson. Gave them a Bible lesson. So in these days in which we feel like the world is spinning out of can troll, let’s do the blocking and tackling of the Christian life. Let’s open our Bible in front of our church. Let’s invite our church to open their Bibles. Let’s keep taking them to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. I think, especially during the year in which an election is going to take place, in which there’s so much controversy and conflict. Now more than ever, we need to be teaching the story of Jesus.

Jason Daye
Yeah, absolutely love that, Max. Thank you so much. I want to encourage everyone who’s watching or listening along to check out Max’s most recent book, What Happens Next? Now, Max, I understand that not only did you prepare the book, but you also have created a small group study that goes along with it.

Max Lucado
A video curriculum. Yeah. I hope it encourages people. I really do. I pray that it encourages people to do what I’ve done, and that is to give it your best shot. Study. Your study might cause you to add something else to the timeline. Or you might look at what I created and say, Lucado, I don’t think you got it right there. Hey, when we get to heaven, we’re gonna all have a good laugh at our attempts. I call it the PW poet’s cafe in heaven. Preachers who preached on end times. We’re gonna all go in there and we’re gonna humbly laugh at one another and say, Well, we did our best. I believe Jesus is honored when we just do our best to. Of course, he’s the only teacher. He’s the only teacher and he will make it clear. He sure will.

Jason Daye
Amen. I appreciate that. For those of you who are watching and listening along, you can find links to Max’s most recent book, What Happens Next? and to the video curriculum, the small group study, and lots of other things, including our Ministry Leaders Growth Guide that digs more deeply into this conversation at PastorServe.org/network. So be sure to check that out. Max, as we’re kind of closing down, I just wanted to give you an opportunity to share some final words. Brothers and sisters who are serving on the front lines, what words would you like to share with them?

Max Lucado
Yeah, I would just remind them that it really is true that the clarity about the future gives us courage in the present. So anytime we can give our people clarity about the future. People are dying for lack of hope. Just dying for lack of hope and we can give this hope. We can. It’s like the whole world is suffering from claustrophobia, that they’re stuck in an elevator, they’re stuck on the tarmac, we’re not moving forward, they feel we’re trapped. Tell them the truth. Tell them that Christ is coming. Tell them that our best days lie ahead and tell them that our our best day on earth wouldn’t be a bad day in heaven because the greatest day and the greatest season of our lives is yet to come. This life is very quick. It’s gonna be gone in a flash. So don’t get too tangled up in what’s happening in the here and now. But let your heart be focused on what happens next.

Jason Daye
Absolutely love that, Max. I appreciate you. Love you, my friend. It’s always a joy to hear from you. So thank you for making time to hang out with us today.

Max Lucado
Totally, my honor. All the very best.

Jason Daye
All right. Thank you. God bless you, brother.

Max Lucado
Bye bye now.

Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it’s one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it’s something entirely different to actually take what you’ve heard, what you’ve watched, what you’ve seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That’s PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode’s topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I’m Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.